In our ninth episode, we talked with James Carlini (aka Carlini8), who is the founder of PCC. Carlini talked about his background as a professional gambler, which made him 60k/month. He also dove deep into his current NFT project called PCC and shared his knowledge on how to keep a project alive and come up with new ideas.
Make sure to listen until the end, because Carlini shares some amazing advice on how to find the best web3 devs and community managers as well as how to successfully build a strong team when launching your own NFT project.
Speakers: Carlini8 (82%), Konrad (13%), Valerio (4%)
Nothing on the show is meant as financial advice and please do your own research.
There wasn't any opportunity like there is now where you can take Ethereum, do stuff with it and have more Ethereum. That's generally what people in the NFT space are doing. They're trying to make ETH. Most tokens aren't launched legally. And I think that will be a big problem for projects as well. Because, like I've said earlier, the team is the important bit, you know, pretty much the outside image of your NFT project right now is all about Twitter. And this is just a very powerful way to get your community interacting more on Twitter. Every community with this would interact more.
Introduction & Welcoming
What's up everyone? Welcome to a another show another episode on the Talkenized Show. I'm your host, Valerio. I'm here with Konrad. What's up? Konrad?
And I'm very happy for today's episode, because today's guest is a OG. He's been into the NFT space since four years now since 2017. And he's the founder of the Purrnelope's Country Club. What's up, James? What's up Carlini? Thank you so much for taking the time and joining us today.
All right. Thanks for having me on.
I'm super, super happy to have you, man and to talk about your background and about your current project and about your general view on web three. So to get started, Carlini, can you give us a short introduction for anyone who doesn't know you yet? Well? Who are you and what you do right now?
Yeah, sure. So Carlini 8. I've been in NFTs since 2017. crypto. I'm not actually sure, because I mined very briefly some bitcoin. And all I know is I did it in my old house, which I lived in 2013 2015. And that's a few that had drovers a few weeks ago. And I kind of got trolled out of mining Bitcoin, because I was told, Oh, you're, you're a millionaire. Yeah. And then I checked, like, overnight, I'd mined 4 P worth of bitcoin at the time or something like that. Four pence, probably about six cents.
You mined six cents worth of bitcoin,
overnight, like every night, I guess So I, I used my gaming PC to mine. And it was when I wasn't using it, you know, it's just like idly mining overnight. And it was not very powerful. So it didn't do much, but it was probably at the time costing me costing me money and electricity. But that that hard drive was wiped many times and it wouldn't have been much. And then 2015 is where my smaller purchases started happening in crypto. And I was mainly when I when I started getting bigger buyers, I was mainly interested in ETH just because I like that you can do stuff like you know, bitcoins great for starting all of this and for what it represents and what it can do. monetarily, but that that didn't really interest me and never brought me in it was more the the utility I guess of Ethereum. They're just hooked me in and full, full blown degens since 2017, pretty much
all right. So so what what are you doing at the moment?
So currently I run Purrnelope's Country Club. It's a 10k PFP NFT projects. But we're just trying to I guess do it right. So I've been in NFTs. Pretty much since you know, they weren't mainstream. There are a couple couple projects before I came in, but certainly not many people. So I've seen how NFTs have changed and where we expect them to go. And back in 2017. We had where we expected them to go. And we've sort of seen how we've progressed towards that. And I just want to sort of utilize the technology with a project as best as possible, which I guess are our main current utility we have that shows that our Fiza ens subdomains where each cat is able to claim a dot PCC dot ETH domain for free, which is just like an ens domain instead of dot ETH. You get .pcc.eth But it's also free because you get it from us who have paid for it PCC dot ETH. And that becomes your wallet. And it can be it can turn your username into a profile picture. And just even little things like I can't search for all of the users on Twitter who have a Purrnelope's as Country Club profile picture. But I can search .pcc.eth go click on people, and it shows me everyone that has that in their name. So it's, we we've actually got something coming that sort of links that to discord as well. And that will just be showing even more. So how this, this can be pushed, because you've effectively got your digital identity linked over Ethereum, Twitter and discord. And we can do lots of things. Once that's all linked up. Yep.
And can you link your NFT to any social media profile like Facebook, Instagram, and so on, or limited by something?
When I say linked, it's bad centralized, I guess. So that's not on Ethereum. And that's with a bot, were able to search using the Twitter API, they just got API, and then Ethereum to check the subdomain. So for what we're planning to do, you could you could probably do the same for Instagram and Facebook, but it would just be integrating with their APIs.
All right. Makes sense.
All right. When did you guys start with with PCC with the project?
The start of PCC
We started building it towards the end of March last year. So we started over a year ago now, but we mint. I think we started minted in June.
All right, how did the launch go? How to demand go.
It was slow, because at the time, we were completely anonymous. Because I was working for NFT boxes before it started NFT boxes were my co founder Pranksy December 2020. And I ended up in March selling my half of NFT boxes to him. But that was there was lots of sort of legal loopholes, we had to jump through and all these sort of things. So ended up taking maybe four months to sort that out. And I didn't think it was the right two people at the time for what I was working on NFT boxes, we couldn't tell them why I wasn't or that I wasn't. So it didn't seem right that we were like, Hey, I'm launching this as well. So we're anonymous until the sale was confirmed. And as soon as the NFT boxes sale was confirmed. We unanoned as a team said, Hey, this is us. We sold out in a couple of hours.
And how did you initially come up with an idea of PCC? Was it your own idea? Or did you have a team because it.
So we are a team of three of us at the start. One who had come from Box NFT boxes with me, the community manager who was part time but wanted sort of a full time stable job because this was I guess, not bang in the middle of lockdowns and COVID. But they were sort of coming back it was January to March 2021, you know, a bit unstable and just wanted to be locked down in in a solid job. So that wasn't something I could offer NFT boxes, someone else who I was going to bring over to NFT boxes is to sort of sort that side of things out as well, who I got to quit a job brought him with me. So that's 3.
And we originally had a couple of ideas on what we wanted to do was take my side of NFT boxes, I worked with the community and sort of made made the things work, I guess, like the website and the contracts, I'd find the right people for that. And we wanted to make sure it's community focused. And our original idea was sort of to try and help creators. Like you guys have a podcast, we would come in with some sort of NFT rewards that would kind of build in Patreon or Twitch subscriptions. You know how to Twitch their badges after six months in a year and two and three years. Why aren't they NFTs? So we're gonna go down that line. And I told these two guys, like, I'll fund it for a year and we'll see where we are Ah, and we were sort of going down that route. And then someone said, How are we going to make money? So I don't know. Hopefully find it. If he said, at the end of the year, what happens? Do I have to find a job, I don't believe properly unless you know, we've got VC funding or get bought out or something like that. And he's like, I want to make money. I want, I want this to be a job. And by I want to make money, that's more I want that to be a salary for me. So we just looked, you know, the matter at the time was 10k, PFP. And then we sort of amended our plans like, right, how can we take the 10k PFP and push that towards community and sort of, in effect doing it right. And you can see sort of on chain, how we've spent the Ethereum from the original sale, most of which went into a kitty vault now worth over 1000 Ethereum, which is 200 ETH of more than our wholesale. So we've sort of created this community pot that's bigger than all of the money we've taken in, which sort of just shows it's not a meant and make us rich, it's a meant and build for the community.
All right. They understand. Previously, you mentioned your launch, right. Your initial launch was in May last year, right.
I'm kind of guessing. I was a couple of seconds. And go to a call. It was 269 days ago.
Wow. Almost a year. Right?
Almost 269 days ago, please help me get it was 17 for July
- July. Alright.
Oh, quickly. Did you sell out?
It took about a month, I'd say. So it was just very slowly minting until I was able to because I was originally Topcat Topcat was running the project. And then as soon as Carlini eight was running the project, it minted it out in a few hours. Think it was about a month between those times.
All right. What do you mean by running the project? What did you do differently than than top cat?
I was just called top cat. I couldn't be me. I couldn't
think of all the anonymity and the public name, I guess. All right.
So people knew they weren't going to get well. They don't know that I'm going to get wrote quite a high chance that you know, my my main wallet has 16,000 transactions. It's been there 1400 days or something like that. And not once in that time have I scammed anyone. So at that point, you know, interesting. quite confident.
PCC’s Community Management
How many pieces Did you sell before you announced that you are you?
Okay, because my question is that at that time, there were a lot of profile pic projects where a lot of them had anonymous team and how did you manage the community to like stay organized because I've been on many discourage during the time and if a project didn't sell out in like a day or two people were just panicking all over the place and claim it as a total scam.
I think I think how that plays out is generally how do you get a get the community in the first place? So like, like I said, we were trying to do it right. So we weren't paying people to promote us weren't paying for tweets. We weren't, you know, sneakily, underhand, well, maybe not even underhand, but given these alpha groups, you know, couple of ETH like, Hey, you start minting you start minting we'll give you this ETH that ETH you'll get everything half price or whatever. They start minting sets off some alerts other people start minting some projects, even their own, their own NFT is you know, they just get a few 100 ETH mint a few 1000 yourself sets off the alerts yourself. Away you go. You're just giving yourself money effectively at that point with a little bit of gas fees. Oh, well. So we were just totally you know, I guess upfront, not paying for hype. And I've seen quite a lot of people trying to do it you know, that way and struggle if you don't follow the matter of the time. You will you will find it hard in this space because there are some excellent marketers They've come into this space. And the problem is that's really where their talents lie. Maybe one or two people on the team are just really good at creating the hype and marketing. But then there's no one to execute once is minted. And we're just seeing so many so many projects, I think a couple of months ago, I looked back at a certain day, last year, I think it was the day it was it was a year before. And there were these calendar projects that used to just put out here, today's mints, and I just looked at every project, and two was still active. Ish. One, I kind of ignored art blocks because there was an art block summit that day. And in reality, that's just art and art blocks is a platform. But everything else there was was maybe nine or 10 projects that hadn't tweeted this year, there was no discord activity, maybe half of them their websites were deleted. But the one the one year, the one year renewal of their website hadn't been continued.
How to keep a project alive
Alright. So what makes it project being like long term because I would say that if you're running it for a year now, we can call the success because as you said, like you've seen many projects starting the same day and just dying out. So how do you survive for this market, which is, I wouldn't say saturated, but there are a lot of new projects coming in every day. And there's huge noise in the space.
It's it is the team, at the end of the day, because if the team keep building, that project is still alive, the may not be many holders, the floor may be basically zero. But when they can tweet, something, like we've been here, two years building, we've done this, that and the other, the the only problems can come down to their funding, if if they just you know, end up having to, if they just gotta go get a job, because this, this project isn't paying them or whatever. But as long as the team are going to stay around the there's always a chance, right? So the projects where the teams leave, they're done. They like they just can't be revived. There's no reason I know, there are NFTs and anyone can spin up a site and build a game around that NFT that they've said that says the crypto kitties days, it was like build, they even back then they tried to pay people to build on top of crypto kitties, very small amounts compared to now because you know, the money involved in crypto was so much lower than but they, it just, it just never works. Because why would anyone put in a lot of effort for someone else's product, when if they're going to build something, they could just sell their own their own avatars, or land or whatever it is that works within the game card games. And it's just very tricky to make that work. So really, the lifeblood of every NFT project is running like a business. Because the will of course, be art, you know, artists aren't expected to do, you know, make a game or anything like that. They just keep creating art. And it's very much its own category. But I'm talking about the projects that should be run as a company. If the team keep going, they can always build a community around it, it's it's harder. It's always easiest at mint because you get in, you build up that height because Mint is coming. But the the rugs will be when when a team member leaves when the team leaves, it's it's just done at this at this period of time, maybe, you know, maybe in five years time, maybe even less, we'll see we'll see time where a community really has built up around a project. And they can survive without a team. All right, but we're not there yet.
And even if the team like comes back, like a couple of weeks after because that's what what we're seeing with some of the projects that are not started like this year 2022 that the team is gone. And then like a month later, like the founders is saying on Twitter. Hello guys. I'm back. Let's do it again. But I guess it's not the same anymore. Right.
And I'm sure that definitely has nothing to do with the guys who have gone to prison for a few years for effectively just straight rocking. So oh, if we if we quickly go back now maybe they won't think we wrote them and we were just incompetent.
It's true that he announced his comeback like a couple of days afterwards. Yeah, it was fun. Um But what exactly do you mean by, you know, keeping a project life? What do you mean by by building? How do you do keep the project alive? That's the main question do you focus on, on providing value in some way providing utility on a on a long term basis constantly? Or how do you keep a project alive?
And all that sort of thing, because usually, when you start a project you've had you have the vision, and the direction you want to go into. And you can call the donor Combinator, like milestones. So if you accomplish them, how do you come up with new ideas that you want to execute?
Well in for new goals in this space, normally, it's just, you know, spend 1819 hours a day on Twitter. And then as soon as some cool new stuff happens, you see it and you're like, right, how can I? Can we use that? Can we improve that. So even even just recently, OWL from cyberkongz, the Dev has released a guardian contract, which is effectively unchained two factor authentification, you can set it up so that you can have your NFT in a hot wallet. But you can only move it or do certain things with it. If you then sign a transaction from a different hardware wallet, which means you can use it in a game. But you can't be scammed out of that NFT, unless you go to your hardware wallet that you've locked away. And you you know, you put somewhere far enough away that while you're walking to it, you think should I really be doing this is this person really not stealing my ape. So you just got to be ready for whatever that new next thing is. I think NFT worlds have changed that as well. Just because they're building effectively on the most played game in history, Minecraft, they're sort of the underlying layer. But the battle hardened code that's underneath it, they've added their own token, and they're allowing communities to come around a game effectively, the game that has to be built by the devs. So that's another angle lots of projects. Now we're building a game in NFT worlds are all of these different sort of ones that are building up. But in it, the I guess the answer is always different for different projects, because they will all have their own little different goals. And for us, it's to use that NFT to the best of its ability. So I do think the ens thing that I'd mentioned earlier, I think that's one of the greatest NFT utilities at the moment. And it is kind of confusing to me why everyone isn't copying us. I would just expect people to see it. I know we're quite small, like not diluted that you know, we're one of the projects that people will be keeping eyes on all the time. But it it should have, I feel like he should have twigged in a couple of founders minds maybe it's just not high on their priority list and it's on their to do list or whatever. But really, whatever the project is building to so if you're if it's a story we've seen with cyber brokers, they've had missions over the past week every day, and that's built up to a reward which I think is a mecca arm but that's clearly then building to something so there's some kind of story going on their bored apes are coming out with their land azuki did their in real life. Check your wallets drop. doodles going down the non dilutive, non dilutive, get everyone in somehow route which is going to be very interesting to see how they do that. So it's just all these projects coming up with their own ways to bring value to their community. And when there's a winner, I think we'll see a lot of people following
Perks of holding a .pcc.eth domain
all right, what by the way, what what do you think is the biggest advantage of holding a .pcc.eth domain like what what makes you so so confident that you're wondering yourself why other founders haven't?
It's it's not .pcc.eeth. It's dot anything dot Eve. So I'm not saying dot PCC dot ETH is the greatest thing ever. I'm saying the concept itself is great. For example, we see we see new ba YC new azuki with founders Every day, they're all verified. They're all tagging us on Twitter. If their username was.ba yc.eth something.ba, YC dot eth. That would be unchained verification that they're real. It's a bit like the hexagon on Twitter. But it's a username. So it would, it will cut out that sort of scamming. And you don't need to ask them for their wallet. So if you're doing a deal with someone that's pretending to be whatever dot bayc dot eth, and they say, oh, actually send it to this other wallet, that should set off alarm bells, because they've publicly said this is their wallet. Why are they wanting to send this somewhere else? It's clearly a scam. And it's, it's just the other integration as well. So we were going to be able to give people a slight nudge to use dot PCC dot ETH on Discord and Twitter. And that itself is powerful marketing. For a project like us, it would be even bigger for a bigger project, if suddenly you have like, there's no doubt in my mind that if bored apes did it before 1000 people on Twitter with Dot BaYC, dot Eth, within a week. And just seeing those all over Twitter, the ability to search, eight, follow eight would be so much stronger. And right now, NFTs are marketing really, when we when we get down to it.
But why would I not be able to just change my username, for example, also to dot, I don't know to Valerio dot baYC dot eth
like that won't work.
But for Twitter, to change your username, you don't need to link it to your wallet, right? It's only for the hexagon profile.
I'm fully expecting some form down the line with Twitter a verification. So you know how they've recently added the links with the little blue ticks. If they're a real link, they verify that links aren't a scam. Alright.
I'm not sure if I knew a bit about this,
it's pretty new a few days, I've just got Twitter open. So I'll just send you I haven't seen as well in the discord. Just next to links, there's a green circle with a white ticket. And I fully expect they are able to verify that an NFT you own an NFT. And it shouldn't be too much of a leap for them to be able to verify that you own a subdomain. So I think very quickly that will become a searchable proof of ownership because you can only have that if you own for us you can only have dot PCC dot ETH if you own a Purrnelope, and you cannot fake like with an NFT. You can you can just mentor bored ape and get a hexagon. You can you know you can just mentor on open see just a picture of it is obviously fake. But Twitter will verify exists an NFT. Whereas we've got PCC dot ETH you cannot verify that the only way to verify it is by actually having it. So when that when their version of a hexagon be that a tick or I don't know, colorful semi circle around it or something like that. That will be sort of the gold standard of not getting scammed, I think.
All right, interesting. So So basically, you think that in some time that it's possible to change your username, I mean, similar to the profile pic, right? Where you connect to your wallet, and then obviously the domain. I mean, it's everything on chain, right? So it's easy to prove, and verify if you actually own it. And then you're actually able to change your user name to whatever if you own whatever domain you own, similar to the profile pic. Alright.
And that's sort of short term thinking as well. If you go, you know, long term, pie in the sky, which often people talk about when thinking about NF. TS, you know, logging into your email with your subdomain, your your web free version of email, whatever that is logging into Facebook, Instagram, even Twitter itself. This could be done via your wallet. And your wallet is your subdomain. It's snow. It's how your wallet is represented, I guess. But you will be logging in as this. This subdomain for everything in the long term.
i It's very interesting because I was always asking myself I could just as you said earlier, I could use CTRL S like a bored eight, right? Safe, safety picture and just just meant it. And then I own the NFT. It's not the official one, but I still own on the NFT and can upload it to as a hexagon on Twitter. And on the first site, it's a bored ape. Right? And I don't think all people, I don't think everyone actually clicks on it, and then scrolls down and checks if all right, it's the official collection and stuff. Usually, it's just the first for sidebar people are
never I've never checked a hexagon, ever. I've never, I didn't even know you didn't know you could. So now I'm having to scroll. And yeah,
I did a couple of times, but I don't think I'm I think I'm the minority. But yeah. I mean, most people are lazy, so so that they will just see the bored ape. And they're like, alright, it's official one. But but that's super, super cool, actually. And I've never thought about that. Well. So I guess we'll see it. Soon that other projects start implemented something like this,
we were already kind of alpha, I guess we're already confirming real Twitter Usernames, we have a bot coming. haven't actually no one in the community knows. So this is, you know, fresh info for them. But there's a bot coming that will check discord, check Twitter, and check the subdomains registered. And if they all match, you will be able to get a role in the discord. And also, there'll be a leaderboard that shows how many of these verified people you follow. So in a way, you're pushing, you know, ape follow ape, there's no way there's no reason to put that tweet out. Because we literally have this leaderboard, showing who we're incentivizing people to go and follow the rest of the community. And that just, you know, pretty much the outside image of your NFT project right now is all about Twitter. And this is just a very powerful way to get your community interacting more on Twitter, every community with this would interact more. So our percentage, you know, might be quite small, and we're starting from a small place. But again, as a concept, if doodles did this, how, how much would that explain the community? You know, these sorts of things?
Interesting. Yeah. I don't know if you have anything to add here, but do you
know, no, I just wanted to move to another topic. If we're long with it.
I would like to talk a little bit about the background first.
So finally, yeah, yeah, sure. It's
alright. Yeah, so your background Carlini. So you said you got into crypto 2013 started mining on your gaming PC? What? How old were you at the time? 2014.
If I had to guess it was probably 2014 as was mining, I was in that house 2013 2015. And it was probably in the middle of 2014. I was 24. It's easier, just add 10 to the whatever you were in.
Alright, all right. And like what background did you have before that? Do you do you have a college degree do you do come from a technical background?
So I went to I went to uni and I did maths and biology. After I graduated, I went to a DNA testing company, using the biology side of things for a few years. But while I was there, I started gambling in my spare time, and it was gambling with its it started off with something called match betting where you you kind of play the odds. And no matter what happens, you make a profit you you bet on every outcome. And you know, I talked about that for hours but in a way I gambled for a living in a way that is mathematically viable. It wasn't I wasn't a degen and I was I was actually running a business. And that got so big that I was actually losing money going to work. So I had to I had to say to my boss I look I'm sorry, I've got a quick I used I kept getting like promoted and moved up all right.
The Key to Carlini’s successful gambling
But again, again, you need to go more into detail. So that was after after graduating college uni and then working for a DNA DNA company and then next to that you start a gambling match match betting what exactly how does it work?
So, in I guess in a quick rundown Is gambling companies want you to gamble with them, there's a lot of competition to gamble. So they want you to pick them over any of their competitors. So they give you an offer, hey, deposit 100 pounds, and we'll give you 100 pounds of fake money. And you have to do a certain amount of gambling until you can withdraw any money. So I use the math side of things to figure out, right is this offer worth doing. So I've put in 100 pounds, I now have 200 pounds, but I have to gamble 2000 pounds. So I worked out if I should, if I would make money doing that. And normally, they would make it profitable for you. Because even without you thinking about it, if you were just gambling on random stuff, they're making it so that you should win originally, you get hooked. And then eventually you give it all back and more to them. So that's their play. So they, they effectively try and make you win early. hook you in. So horrible practice is really destroyed some lives. But if you just take the good part of that offer, if you take the bit where they're making it so that you should win, and then leave and then repeat with another company and then repeat with another company. And then you know, just keep keep going. And that was effectively where it all started. And then that grew into quite a big business. All right, quit I quit my job in 2015 and was a gambler until effectively COVID.
So karma really were you making per month as a professional gambler.
It did vary based on the we're always December was always a good month, because companies would put out effectively advent calendars where every day, they would put out an offer. And it was really busy because he had to go through all the sites and figure out which company had actually put out a good offer and which one a terrible offer. Because they weren't all just because their offers didn't mean they were worth doing. And also throughout the time period. I was I got progressively better at it. But at the same time the gambling companies made it harder and harder. So it's like an all way always a battle to innovate and sort of move on. I my peak, I was probably making 50,000 pounds a month
how many dollars are that? Approximately?
70,000 pounds 65. Almost exactly. 65. And that's because that's gambling as well in the UK gambling is tax free. Which is a shame that crypto and NFTs are classed as gambling because I'll tell you if you're listening Boris or Rishi, I am gambling
and how many hours a day were we working on your gambling business?
It was quite it was quite a lot it was. So I was in the mindset that I wouldn't get another opportunity like this in life and I really had to you know, really grasp it while I could. So I was I was working. You know, most of the time before I had kids, it was you know the only other thing I really did was spend time with my wife and sometimes sometimes go out and then when I had kids I did it less because I spend more time with them. That's another good thing I was always at home to to help out and see them. But yeah, the mindset was work all the time. But obviously I had lazy periods. But I just wanted to go for it while I could. But slowly NFTs kind of took over so I was I was gambling during 2017 NFTs 2018 NFTs 2019 NFTs because the money just wasn't really there. Like the the NFT market you guys have experienced I would have never kept gambling. If that was what it was like it was so bad that I was making I was making money gambling to put into NFTs because I believed in NFTs but I was not making money in NFTs
How Carlini found out about crypto
I mean it makes sense for you to squeeze out everything you could but at what point and how do you find about crypto because if you're working all the time, like how did you find it?
I found it when I found gambling ish when I found match betting because I was always you know, I don't even really fully know how I found match betting. So I did the match betting concept on my own just before I sort of found it I did it. And I was like, this should be a thing. So I kind of went looking, found it. And at the same time, people were using Bitcoin to move money around. So I'd done some research into crypto. But the thing about crypto then is you could only really to make to make money two or three ways you could trade. And I was not a trader, and trading takes losses to learn, you could found and, you know, I just found crypto, I couldn't build something or raise any money or do anything like that. Or you could just hold it. And that's just parking money. And you're always just hoping it goes up. Obviously, you can go back in time, and no, it goes up. But there wasn't any opportunity like there is now where you can take ethereum do stuff with it and have more Ethereum i That's generally what people in the NFT space are doing. They're trying to make ETH, which you couldn't do back then you couldn't I mean, some people did. But it wasn't common. So I always knew of crypto when a couple of days ago guess match betting groups where they had like minded people. And a couple of them were getting into crypto. So I can't remember there was some, some, I think, weekly report that a couple of friends had bought into that we all spoke about every week that sort of just kept our eye and looking for possibilities. Because we we were mainly looking at it from a bitcoin casino point of view, because if they started putting good offers on all you have to do is make a bitcoin address, you know, it was almost unlimited free money. And unfortunately, they never really, they never really brought in big office.
And you said that right now someone can put eth to make more eth. So how do you exactly multiply is that you have? And how much do you need to start with? Because I think that's also important question.
Well, it's really easy, all you do is you mint one bored ape for naught point naught eight, if, then you just hold it, you get you get a dog a mutant, you know, that's fair to say, if you go ape, it's, you know, it's, it's the NFT Casino. That's what people are doing. And some people are very good at it. And they're making a lot of ETH. And some people are just funding those people. But we do have lots of injection of Ethereum from people who truly believe in what they're buying. You have young people spending hundreds of 1000s of ETH on pieces that they truly believe will be worth lots in 10 years in 20 years. You know, when when Gary Vee bought loads of punks for a lot of ETH he's not looking to flip, he hasn't sold one, his his punks are sitting there waiting for you know when he's 80 and he can do something with them. Whereas that Ethereum he put in has gone to someone else to then go back into the casino. So these these people are bringing in lots of Ethereum that the true believers, I guess that is just pumping up other people's bags and letting people then spend that Ethereum and other projects and and pushing it all up.
How to find a good NFT to flip
Alright, and how do you choose the project that you want to flip? I mean, obviously, like it can vary a lot of things like hype and Tim, etc. But if someone's looking to Soulages make a lot of money quickly. What is your criteria?
Well, right now, you've I guess you've got a feel, feel the hype that certain projects have for the shore things. For example, I can't remember what is called Moon Moon owls. The Kevin Rose one I think is minting a 2.5 Ethereum. And that certainly, that certainly doesn't seem like it will be a bad buy. But getting onto that whitelist is hard because everyone thinks it's free Ethereum that sort of thing. Has a solid team behind it that have delivered multiple things in their life. And I'm sure that project will do well. Whereas on the flip side, you have a similar hype level for things like pick someone. And that was purely marketing. There was there was no team behind it. There was That was just a roulette spin. But people effectively got wrong. But some people actually did flip and revealed before it was seen what the art looked like. But if more if you're telling people like how to make money, it needs to be the solid projects. And if you just, if you just know you want to degen, I guess if you know that, there's that possibility to lose, then what you have to do is, secure your profits when you can. And the hard bit is looking back, I have owned many apes that I've sold. And I sold them at five ETH, 10 ETH 15 ETH. And I, if you look back at those, you know, it haunts you, I owned over 100 punks. And I sold them all, you know before, before they breach 10. And then obviously, they went over 100. There is no one that has perfectly traded any NFT. So you just have to accept that you won't be perfect. And you're you will if you just if you go pure degen, and you're gonna hold bags. But also you will get out of winners too early. There's there's just no two ways about it. I think mindset is a big thing here.
All right. Why did you say earlier that a mint price of 2.5 is doesn't sound like a bad buy.
Because of the project itself, let me try and I can't fully it's moon birds XYZ. So is by is by Kevin Rose. And the they founded proof. XYZ, which I last time I checked that the floor for that was 80 Ethereum. So there's there's a lot of hype going into it because of what they've already done. Kevin Rose has done a hell of a lot in his life. And his is co founder I can't remember what his name is. Ken just trying to have a quick scroll to for remember, I've listened to their spaces, but I can't remember his name. They've both done a lot of big deals and like they could be retired if they wanted to be there. I think it's a good if you have the opportunity, I think that should be bought because it very much feels like with the experience the team have the hype around the project and their ability 2.5 ETH won't be where it stops just comparing it to the other projects on the market at the moment.
How Carlini built a successful gambling business
Yep. All right. If you're if you're comparing the NFT let's say the NFT casino to what you did back back almost 10 years ago, right? The gambling business. It was matched betting right. Match betting means you're betting on a match. It's a football match, or how do I understand?
Well, just like in, in the simplest terms, a match bet would be betting on every outcome. So it doesn't have to be football. But if you're betting on football, you could bet on win draw and loss. But you you bet on a win with whatever company you've just signed up to, which then will allow you to get a free bet from them. So they'll give you a fake 100 pounds, which you can then use later on a second bet. And then you lay the bet somewhere like Betfair where and a lay just means not so you would bet on not win with Betfair and you bet on a win with whatever company it is, but you can also you can bet on tennis is quite a common one. You know, there are only two outcomes there. Even even horse racing, you know people people did it on the Grand National just the other day because you could if you cover every horse are using these this free money that they give you, you then have quite the result at the end although after about a year or so I moved away from match betting and it was actually the casino side of things. But it was in a match betting way. I guess running it. The maths was on my side, but you could go on bad losing runs.
All right. And you started math right. So I guess that helped you with the probability calculations right?
A bit, but the word calculators so it's not like I was doing stuff on the fly in my head. I was more just keying stuff into spreadsheets, but just understanding how it worked. Quite a lot of people who made a lot of money doing this. Had no idea about the mouse. And they quite often would get scared after a few months of losing.
Alright, interesting. But it's still fair to say that you were some kind of genius, right? I mean, I mean, you still are right, but not now. You're a NFT. Genius.
You can't You're not allowed to say that yourself. Well, no, it's not. I'm not even. I'm not book smarts. I'm just, I guess, internet smarts. I know. I know, my way around the internet. Now is what
did you did you watch the Netflix movie? There was like a Netflix movie where there was like a guy from College, where he was in like, a US college and went to the math class. And he was like, super good. And then the teacher. Like, one, yeah. 21. And yeah, and they they played blackjack and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was super, super inspiring. They made tons of money and lost. And lost it. Oh, by the way, how did your your boss react? When you when you went to him and told them now? Well,
I, I, I walked up to her. And I said, Can I can I have a word? And her reply was, Oh, good. You don't have a letter. Because she was she was a client. So she knew how much I was making at the time. So like, it wasn't a secret in the office or anything like that. And my reply to her was, oh, I need a letter do I? She was so went to the meeting room. And yes, she just, she knew it was coming and said something along the lines of, there's no amount of money I can offer you to keep you as the as I said, not within your budget. We are still friends, I still went early 2015. So we're coming up to seven years. And you know, I've, I've had a meal with it this year. A couple of old work friends I still meet up with
Carlini’s key learnings
All right, so I mean, my original question was, if you compare the NFT, casino to the, to the gambling business you did, where do you see connections? What did you learn? What learnings have you done previously, with your gambling business? You know, maybe controlling your emotions, focusing on on demand for the right rational thinking and stuff? What learnings did you make from your previous experience that you think, or that you can share with the community that is interested in let's say, the NFT. Casino?
It was it was mindset, really. Because gambling before was very mathematical. I knew that if I kept going, I should make money. It didn't mean that I would. Because when you're doing things like to maximize Evie, you take the whole amount of money. So say I deposited 200 pounds, and I got a 200 pound bonus, I'd put all 400 pounds on one number on roulette, purely because that was mathematically the best way to do it. So when you're just throwing away for throwing away money until you hit because there are 37 slots on a roulette wheel. So in theory, I should hit one in 37. You know, that takes a toll on you if if you just have a bad day, and it's very possible to go 100 without hitting. And you're just like, oh my god, a terrible day, you just always think if I'd literally done nothing today, if I stayed in bed, I'd be so much richer than I was than I am now. So what a waste of my time I've spent my time and my effort and I'm down. And I've done exactly what I should. Now you can't do that in the NFT world because buying something and expecting it to go up isn't maths, it's not a formula. It's not set in stone, what should happen. It's more feeling. But what you can do is you can be in the right mindset when Cryptos dumping like it is now to just take a step back and really look is this is crypto a thing? Are we actually going to still be here in 10 years? And yes, I very, I very much think it's a certainty at this point. And I think NFTs are in that space. So if you can handle the ups and the downs of these main projects that have teams that are staying, that are doing things that are going to be impactful in a few years. If you have the conviction like The people I've known who have made the most in NFT, since 2017, are those that have gone for a project and made insane bets on them. So I know Pranksy very well I got Pranksy into the space. I, I, you know, was in a slack with Pranksy, pre crypto kitties in 2017. And pranksy, he had 1250 bored ape or one point and sold most of them on the way up made, Mises made millions of pounds and is credited for effectively, very carefully selling them and helping not crushed the community. Because if it Pranksy just be like, right, let's list them all. One if you know, that wall just is never getting crossed. I don't think bored apes make it because the community wouldn't be as feel good as it was. Because the community is strong. But it was weaker back then obviously, and the growth helped strengthen them. And on the flip side, I've also friends with Jimmy Dot eth, who held a couple of hundreds, at the same time and sold less and still has maybe 80. And his conviction just led to you know, we're talking it's a bit crazy here because we're talking retired for the rest of your life with an insane budget. And the difference between retired for the rest of your life and then same budget and a couple of yachts. So you know, it's it's a ridiculous gap. But it's also the minimum we're talking about is already huge. So the big winners, when you look back are always those who buy into projects that they believe in and stick with them. You know, cocoa bear is someone else. Snow fro I tried to get him to sell a zombie crypto punks, zombie for fingers 40 Ethereum, when Ethereum was maybe $800, it was something like that. And I was like, Look, you need to sell you've got 30 of them. And he was going to spend it on real estate which eventually ended up being a staging place for our block. So I think he's still happy with the sale because of where it led. But he had so many posts. So many zombie punks. And it was so hard for me to convince him to sell one further time the highest sale ever, that these people just have the conviction and they stick to it and they make lots of money. I can't tell anyone if that sort of time period is over.
I can see quite easily an NFT being worth, you know, a floor of 1000 Ethereum. Very long term. I can't tell you what one that's going to be obviously apes are currently leading the charge and they're your safest bet. But is that how you make lots of money now? I'm I'm not sure. All right.
All right. By the way, talking about apes, I heard that that you thought that the launch of the ape token that you didn't think you made a good job on that. Am I right?
I don't like that the apes don't yield the token. Yes, I think we're releasing our own token for Purrnelope's Country Club. And I think about token hours a day. And I have maybe four months at this point, maybe even five or six. And I much prefer an NFT. That yields a token. Because you're adding value to the NFT. At this point, apes have two things. They have the ape token, and they have the NFT. And in my mind, the token is taking away value from the NF T but the question here is, can they use the funds they raised from the token to offset that loss for apes. And for them? They probably can be they can use the funds to build enough for apes. But I don't think anyone else can. So if anyone copies them. That's a problem. And historically, everyone copies apes like there's just no two ways about it. Someone will try and copy them and they won't launch on every exchange at the same time the first token ever to do that. They won't have these these backings providing the liquidity early on or have the funds to do that and They will just take their whole projects with a token that ultimately people don't want. For instance, board apes had some launched ape with utility, that just doesn't work for any other projects that you need utility out the gate, or it's not going to work. Or it's an uphill battle, I guess at that point, it's much easier to launch with utility than to launch without it and then try and capture it
How Carlini plans to launch the PCC token
just allows you launch your own token right now won't be like the exact steps you will take and what will be the utility for the token itself.
Wonderful. First step is to do it legally. So I can't launch it in the UK. So the token is going to be launched in the British Virgin Isles, there is a company already set up. Just paid for within arm's reach. When did this the 15th of December, it was launched that just shows how far back we were thinking about it. So we can legally launch the token, most tokens aren't launched legally. And I think that will be a big problem for projects as well, because like I've said earlier, the team is the important bit when teams are covered. If you're successful, you bring more light onto your projects. And when it's eventually found out that a token wasn't launched legally and the team is pursued, you know, they might abandon the project, or they might go to prison, they're not going to keep working on on this illegally launch token now. So step one is to launch it legally, which is all sorts of and step two is to provide the utility. So what what I've done is I've looked at a lot of other projects that have done similar things. So Cyberkongz, for example, have a yielding token, and it was very successful with them, breeding babies sup ducks had volt. And that went well with the snack shop that they had. So we'll be launching our tier twos, which is effectively our, our mutants or our meebit, you know, that sort of level of the community. And that will be purely, it will be purely in token. So you can only receive that with token. So people will be using it to gain that long term will want it in our NFT world.
James James, can you quickly clarify what you mean exactly by a yield token?
So just normally, every day, you get a little trickle of the token. So it builds up over time, effectively.
So instead of instead of getting hammered, how much do they get, like 20 20,000 Apes per per bored ape, right? So instead of getting all 20,000, you should get them like on a on a schedule, right? Like, daily or something?
Yes, it's slowly slowly release it. Because if you have all of the tokens, you're going to get up front, they did, you know, they sent a lot to the DAO and the DAO is voting on some sort of token yielding. But they're, they're doing it where you lock up, ape to get it and the NFT counts as a key. It's it's a little tricky to talk about now because something was proposed. And then the apes voted it down. And now something new is being proposed. And we're not sure if it's actually going to happen yet. So we don't actually know how they're doing it. But they're like their AirDrop, for example. Wasn't that much. wasn't a big percentage. I don't have the figures in front of me right now. But it was it was maybe 20% was the airdrop 40% was the DAO and then the rest went to Yuga, the charity partners and the team I think
How to find the best people for your team as a creator
one more thing I would like to touch on aside from token is a team which mentioned a lot during this episode. So how to build a really good team that will stay with you for a long time. And I second question will be how much money do you need upfront? Because no one really talks about salaries for teams. So like, if you'd like to start your own project, how much would you need to pay them on a monthly basis?
Well, that's that's tricky because when you start bringing in this in this sort of space, people can be from anywhere, right? You don't, you don't have to hire around you, you don't have to hire in the US. You know, even like, none of the Purrnelope's team, there isn't an office, we don't meet up everyone's remote. So the team could in theory be from anywhere. And what you need to do is you need to make sure you get the right people in the right places, but that doesn't. That's more about their skills. So you need your community manager to have web 3 experience, for example, you need your community manager to know about NF Ts, because that's who they interact with, you can't have them looking like a complete noob in front of your community. Whereas say, your website dev doesn't need to, they can just be a really good website dev from web two. So there are certain roles where you can pull in web two, and there are certain roles where you really need web three. And there are some that you can kind of cross over, for example, marketing, you, you probably need at least one person in your marketing team who knows about web three and is experienced in it. But a really good marketer from web 2 world or just you know, anywhere can then come in and bring ideas to help grow your project that way. Salary wise, it's you, you want to pay people well, you'll be looking at high end pay. certain roles are very tricky to get. Now you can even a solidity Dev, what you can do is find a dev in web two, to learn solidity because depending on your projects, they there's there's a lot they can look at. So if you're just doing a 10k PFP, for example, they can look at our project or apes or doodles and look at their contract because it's all open source, and see how to do it themselves. And then after enough time, they become you know, if you've got someone who really wants to better themselves, they can then learn enough over that time. Because in reality, there aren't really, you know, the best Ethereum devs haven't been doing it 10 years because Ethereum isn't 10 years old. It's more about how quickly people learn and how willing they are to learn.
And it's cheaper like that, right? It's cheaper, getting a web 2 dev, learn solidity instead of hiring a web three dev,
it's also easier, yeah, because there are more of them than there are that already know solidity. And the issue with solidity. devs is they know how much is going to how much your NFTs are going to sell for. And that then makes it quite tricky. Especially if you're mainly putting back into the community. So like, I think we sold out for $3 million, I think it was when you at the time and you know, multiply it all out the 800. If we took in that, you know, maybe 10% of that has gone on salary, it's without No, probably it will be more than 10% Just you know, thinking about it quickly for a second. But it's not a huge chunk. Most of it has gone back in and none of it has gone into anyone's pocket. So you need a team that will understand it is a company. And most you know web two people coming into web three would see it as that. Whereas if someone's been in NFTs quite a long time, they might have seen you know pudgy penguins, they minted out and sent all the Ethereum to their own private wallets. Which was a bit crazy at the time. And for me, that's that's a bit of a red flag and they went on to then sell the project someone else a few days ago. So fine, finding a team is hard. you're best off building friends first building a friendship group thinking who's in, you know who actually wants to be in this what their skills, place them in the right place, and then go and find what you don't have the will you'll never be able to get a group of friends that have everything. Bored apes, for example, went and found the artists they didn't even have the ability to create this art that has become so monumental. They hired in three or four artists for that. So you just got to play to your strengths and find what you can in reality to find you can either change your name on Twitter to is hiring, I see that a lot. So I assume it works. That's not what I did. Or discord, we found website 2.0 People just because in one of the channels, one of the discourse has a NFT Bill doors channel, and they just posted, hey, we were web devs just looking to do some things. And I contacted them. And that's sort of how that connection was made. So it's just been active, sort of living and breathing. The project, I guess, alright,
can you still do that now? Or, or what what would now be the best and most efficient way to find dev to find artists to find different people for your team?
If you're looking to launch soon, and you've already got, you know, a couple of crypto NFT friends, for artists, honestly, I'd go to Instagram, you know, it's I'd scroll Instagram, I'd put in some kind of art hashtag. I'd scroll until I find some art that looks great. And I'd I'd message maybe 20 People have great looking at have some sort of pitch message that's like, Hey, we're looking to build this. We were looking for an artist we'd like to what I'd say to them is that we're looking to have someone involved, we want an artist who will continue to work on this, you'll probably be skeptical of NFTs because everyone outside of NFTs hates NFTs is pretty much how it goes. So I would, I would say look, I'm willing to listen to all your concerns, artists will probably have the two main concerns of selling stolen art, which is better than the real world, which is very annoying, because you only know the art is getting sold because of the NFT. And it's not most NFTs and it's no successful NFTs. And the environment, which you can then talk about the merge is coming and that will make Ethereum so much better better than paying on a canvas and shipping it across the world. And then get them involved. Have them as a co founder Don't say, I mean, if you want to make as much money as possible, what you do is you you basically screw over the artist and you say yeah, we'll do it for we'll do a fixed fee, and you do that. But my artist is Apollo have more now. But at the time I said look full time job salary. Come on in both, there was no sort of percentages because we're not splitting it. We weren't minting and then splitting the cash. But if you just say, look, you're a co founder you're in. Eventually you'd find it artists that way is I think, all right,
cool. How did you pay your artists a salary if you didn't launch your project that just with your own money? Or
yeah, so I, I said to these two guys, that I'd fund it for a year already. Because, you know, as in NFTs and NFTs have gone crazy. And it's so quite a few and I had money set aside. So I put some money aside, and in my head that was for this project. And when that run run out, you know, it was over, I guess. So this was this was a bet on the project working? And if the money if the money ran out that was that, I guess.
All right. Well, if you take someone on the percentage, then you may you're like sure that they will be very involved in that they believe in the project itself. And I'm committed.
Yeah, and artists who will be working on it more than right, can you make this 10k PFP. For me, and then when it's done, that's done. But if the artist is in, they could make the 10k PFP. And then they could start work on some marketing materials, go on Twitter, and then they can start working on your secondary products or just, you know, fun stuff where your your profile picture project is in a scene and build up the law because they truly believe in the project because that in the projects is it's just a lot better that way.
All right. So I'm trying to recap for our listeners. So to find an artist, you suggest going to Instagram and then search for a specific hashtag. Do you maybe have a short example of a hash tag?
Well, it depends what you're you're going for. I was looking for a H fans and artists this way not not for our project but for something specific within the project. And I think it was building art because I was looking for sort of landscape and that sort of thread. So every you know, like if you're if you're doing a seal project You know, try just hashtag art and look at the reasons, but maybe CLR, PT or animal art, or I don't know if those hashtags are real, you know, just just get a bit creative around what you're looking at, for the artists to do. All right, and you should be able to find it.
Like just a quick tip, if you if you want one profile, you can just press the arrow button next to the Follow button, and it will have a drop down of similar profiles. So like, you will have suggested similar ones. Smart move, Konrad
did not know that. I live in Instagram noob.
All right, and then have you your pitch message ready and send them a nice pitch and stuff. What about devs though? I mean, I assume web three depths or like the, like the web three job with the highest demand, but the low supply? Am I right?
It's very much seems that way. I've seen a couple people claiming on Twitter that it's good community managers are really? And I guess that's, that's hard to quantify, because they're very much saying good. So, you know, what does? What does that mean? You know, people will have fun. Yeah, exactly.
So if you had to go and find, like, one, a web three dev right now and a community manager now, what would you do it? And? And yeah,
I think I would try and pull a community manager from a community I was already in. So an active discord that I'm in, I would try looking for. I think I just already know, by being in the, in the discords. A couple of people who I think have the potential to do the job well. And I'd I'd I'd kind of rank them and speak to them in that order, I guess. Dev YT Dev. I, I just I just knew one. That's it. That's my problem. I I knew a dev who I think I was in a discord with them. And I was saying like, I'm trying to find a web 3 Dev, it's really hard, not sort of fishing, but just sort of in general. And they were like, I could try it. I was like, Okay, you think so? So yeah, it would be hard. I'll just read some contracts and go from there. And they basically just read loads of contracts and got used to the language and figured it all out.
We have two tabs. But I guess like, GitHub is big for for devs. write or read it and because I heard some people just you know, post on Reddit or go to communities on Reddit. And that's but yeah. And if you know, a specific thing you would do right now to get the depth. You can tell it if not.
I'd asked my dad if he knew any devs, because he's a dev. B, and here's the issue is he's not really motivated by money. He's motivated by enjoying his job. So maybe I could convince him to do it. Such that he just doesn't care about NFTs enough. But I could ask him to find me a dev from work or something like that, or from a past job. Who's a good Dev, you know? And so obviously, that doesn't, if your listeners want to call my dad his numbers, oh seven.
Because when you said that you need a web 2 dev and to learn like to make him learn solidity. It sounds like super hard task. Because what do you say like you approach him and say, Hey, I'm gonna build this project, I need you for it. Like, all you have to do is learn solidity and that's it. It's possible.
To us it sounds really hard. But from from the devs have spoken to that have learned it, they've said it's not too tricky. Like if, if they're generally a good Dev, I think they should be able to make the basic leap that you need to launch a project, they should be able to do that quite easily. If you're there
well, it's it's smiley, or is it dimension division,
everyone will be different, but over the same way as the artists that try and get them properly in, you know, to to join your vision. You're going to need a reason for this project. Like what are you doing differently that is going to you know, why? Why why are people going to care about your project, you need to convince them that you can actually mint out and get the funds to make this into a proper job.
Carlini‘s opinion on decentralization
All right, cool. I see. Thank you. Carlini. I think that was some some fire advice for are all our listeners very, very valuable? The last thing before we let you go? It's something I always love to talk about. What Why do you like? I mean, you talked about Bitcoin first, right? And how you like it? How we prefer a few than Bitcoin because you can build applications or you can build stuff on Ethereum. But how what's what's your point of view on the topic of decentralization? Because that's something that I am concerned. And that's also what I focus a lot. And decentralization is important for me, right? And bitcoin is just way more decentralized than Ethereum, for example, so that's why I'm a little bit I mean, of course, Ethereum 2.0 is coming out and the merge will be great. And, and but how do you see the point of decentralization that if you're young guys, the boys from the foundation are holding almost 70% of the tokens and stuff? And, I mean, we just went from proof of work to proof of stake right? Like that,
to me, it's a level of scale. Like decentralization isn't yes or no. Like. Bitcoin is more decentralized, but it isn't completely decentralized because someone can set up it's just a matter of tech right? If you have enough mining power, it Bitcoin isn't decentralized, because you have enough to 51% attack or whatever. It's just a different level to Ethereum it is more decentralized. But for me, I'm not personally too worried because it is Ethereum is far more decentralized than Solana what we already have, yeah. Well, Solana is just a Google spreadsheet in my mind. So it's, it's about as decentralized as the, you know, my my organizational spreadsheets? Unless Sam you're listening and you want to invest in PCC, then it's the most decentralized token in the world is the best and I love it. If you're not it's No, I, you know, I'm very surface level on Solana and the surface level seems to be it turns off all the time, and it runs on about four PCs. But for me, Ethereum is decentralized enough. And I guess what I care about more is the stuff on it. So you can read everything is open source? Well, most things that people interact with are open source, and they can be checked. And you have people like quit going through contracts, when they're launched and telling everyone what's in them. And it's, it's that level of openness, that is more important to me, because that will matter. To the users like what we're doing is changing everyday life in a more simple way. Whereas Bitcoin, I guess, you could argue, will have a huge effect, because it depends how, you know, doom and gloom, er, and the whole economy of the world. But if you're not on that side of the scale, if if that isn't a huge worry for you, which you know, people like you, it should be your main worry. For me, you know, personally, I don't think it will get there, I'm sure you know, will be sent laser links and do your own research and all this stuff about how I should have hundreds of Bitcoin because the world's going going to hell. But I guess living in my nicer, happier bubble, of where, where we don't think governments are trying to kill us off in a great reset. The fact is, we can't scam each other as easily on Ethereum in more everyday life. So Ethereum is more decentralized than what we have now. So it is better. And I It doesn't matter to me that there's something even more decentralized because you can't do stuff with it, I guess.
All right. All right. I mean, I think it's big on film. They have two different use cases. I mean, exactly. Yeah.
They don't they're not competing in any way.
Exactly. We cannot put them we cannot compare them and try to make them compete each other. I mean,
coingecko and that's about it.
Exactly. All right. Yeah. Cool. Thank you so much, Konrad. Do you have any questions?
Still, now I've asked all the ones to ask. So yeah, thank you very much Carlini for joining us today. It was a pleasure talking to
No problem. Thanks for having me on.
It was an amazing podcast man. It was super super insightful and valuable and I'm sure the community can can learn a lot from from what you share.