Carlini8  0:00  
It is very important to me to be flexible because of this space and how new it is and you just never know what's around the corner in this NFT world because of how the technology is growing and changing

Carly Reilly  0:16  
Hello everyone GM GM Welcome to another episode of overpriced JPEGs I'm Carly Rilley, and today on the show I have Carlini better known as Carlini8 online. Carlini is the founder of Purrnelope Country Club, the NFT project brand, which of course, is a big part of what we talk about today on this episode.

Carly Reilly  0:39  
But I'll just say this, Carlini has been in this space since very early days, he was very involved during crypto kitty era, he co founded NFT boxes with Pranksy, like he's in and we talked for two hours. So to try and even summarize or tease what we get into in here, I would just do it inadequately. What I'll say is Carlini is a fountain of information. He's funny, he has strong feelings and opinions on things. For example, he thinks Bored Ape Yacht Club, messed up the launch of ape token. And you can hear all about that along with tons of other nuggets just about how the NFT space runs should run isn't running. He's a he's a joy to talk to a joy to listen to. And I think y'all are going to enjoy this conversation. So I'm going to hand it over to our sponsors to hear a word from them. Without them this show, of course, would not be possible, and then you're going to get into my conversation with James Carlini

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Carly Reilly  3:11  
Hello everyone GM GM welcome back to another episode of overpriced JPEGs I'm Carly Rilley and today on the show I have Carlini, Carlini8 as he's better known online but Carly Carlini we're gonna have fun with that in some way here Carlini I'm sure that Carlini is a super NFT OG, we will talk about his background here in a bit and he is the co founder of Purrnelope's Country Club, which we will also be talking quite a bit about, I'm really excited to dive into what you've done with with Purrnelope's I think you've done a lot that's innovative. You've really been a model of you know, bringing a project like like slow growth and also kind of bring a project back after some I think some price drops and all the rest of it so really excited to dig into your story and how you do what you do.

Carlini8  4:06  
Thanks for having me on. Yeah, it's gonna be great. Hi everyone. Happy to be here. Excited to see where this goes. Cuz you know, we had a chat earlier just see what's what and just loads of things to talk about really isn't

Carly Reilly  4:22  
You got lots of feelings and opinions so I feel like this could go a lot of different directions we get you on the right kind of a rant and we're often in a totally new direction. That's the goal here by the way, we're just gonna try and set off okay, I want to actually start with NFT boxes. I don't folks may or may not know you were partnered with Pranksy you and Pranksy go back way back. I think you were the one who actually initially got Pranksy into NFTs is that true?

Carlini8  4:51  
Yet back in December 2017 With crypto kitties, so I knew him pre NFTs

Carly Reilly  4:59  
Wow. Okay, and so you two sort of enter the NFT space in some ways together and launched NFT boxes, which is a really cool program. My conception of it is it's essentially Birchbox or BarkBox, or like one of those sorts of services but digitally and for NFTs, is that a fair description of NFT Boxes?

Carlini8  5:20  
Yeah. So it was a curated box of NFTs curated by Pranksy. That would be sent out monthly, we wanted it to be subscription based. So would just be like those products. But it was a bit bit trickier. with NFTs at the time, I think it was actually it's been done since. And I think NF  boxes this year is going to be a subscription service. But yeah, it was it ended up being by a box and get the 10 curated pieces of roughly turn each month inside it.

Carly Reilly  5:57  
So you had to actually manually up to this point, you've had to essentially manually buy the box each month, and then you could get the NFTs as opposed to being essentially auto subscribed. Is that what you're describing? 

Carly Reilly  6:08  
Yeah, so the that'd be a monthly sale. Except December, which was, if you had collected all of the others up to that point, December was a free AirDrop to everyone so kind of, you could say a subscription, but not really at that point, but will be this year

Carly Reilly  6:29  
was the hold up to being able to make it a subscription or to making an assumption out the gate connected to like technical capabilities and smart contracts, or something else

Carlini8  6:41  
it was tech plus meta, like just at the time, it was harder to get people to commit when I was when I was talking to people and doing some sort of investigation into what would be likely to sell and all of that it was tricky to fit into the model as well. Because each month would the sale would happen. And the funds would be automatically split between the company for to then pay taxes and salary and things like that. And then between the artists as well, there'd be a pre arranged percentage that they would get because obviously we couldn't be sure, we would sell out. So it would say this is the most amount. This is completely maxed mint, this is the price and you'd get this percent and they'll either agree to it or not. And obviously if they did, they're in the box and we click the button and the ETH would automatically go to them. So that bit did work and a subscription service could kind of be based around that. But it was just tricky from a from a more prolonged approach. How does that ETH then get split to the next artist and the next artist so the sales were just easier at the time.

Carly Reilly  8:02  
So the the sale prices for these boxes, it sounds like fluctuated a little bit or you're saying it wasn't even that it was just like what percentage they would get. 

Carly Reilly  8:10  
They had to yes

Carly Reilly  8:12  
we could have hard coded each time and so that was as they had to fluctuate based on artists.

Carlini8  8:16  
The arts, the artists were fixed. The issue was gas so we started kind of at the at the beginning of the NFT bull run I guess I'd say it really starts at the end of 2020 but at the start of 2021 January that was our first sale. You know we'd we'd planned I think for a fifth. We will be sending out a 50 Gwei that is short it just sat over 100 for so long in February I think it was we just had to adapt our prices because otherwise we were sending out I think at one point there was 700 boxes. So it might have been 11 items in that box who was sending out 7700 NFTs and minting them which is pretty much the whole gas cost of a profile picture project now which we had to send out and that had that had to be baked into the price that we put the boxes at so as that went up we had to adjust and it was pretty stressful to be honest because you can never really plan ETH gas at all. We were trying to have this period where there would be like a fun sort of reveal and we hadn't fully because the the project was was quick to get going it was only December when we really were like right this is happening. And the end of January was the first sale and in my head lots of things were happening that we just didn't have time to plan so the we're going to be like artists spotlights you No articles or maybe a Spaces Spaces wasn't a thing at the time, I think it's going to be a discord chat in the NFT boxes chat about the artists that was coming in and they'd give you info. And then maybe at that point, they'd reveal their piece. So they'd be like this fun, week or two, where all this information would be coming in. And that gave the possibility of guests to fly. And around the time it did, obviously, because all of those high gas times that we saw last year, it was towards the end of the move, perhaps he was trying to send a box out one of those months, and it just got just got tricky.

Carly Reilly  10:47  
So it's worth noting that, that you're not formally working with NFT boxes anymore. You're really focusing on Purrnelope's Country Club, which of course, we're going to talk all about. So I say that to say, I don't know if you can answer this question. But what has shifted I mean, gas has been lower and been a little bit stabler. But I don't know that anybody feels like they want to count on that in a business decision, what changes have been made that will allow the subscription model to potentially work today?

Carlini8  11:21  
Well, I think just from a from the space perspective, people do think about it a little differently. Now. We're not in a, I guess, a time period that I call max mint. Like, if you there were no whitelists, sort of in this period of time, where I was working at NFT boxes. And if you just minted anything, you profited, basically, so people were just minting the max that they could. And they were trying to send in multiple transactions. And that's what was sending the gas go high for short periods of time. 

Carlini8  11:57  
But the culture just wasn't around, I get the word people that appreciated the door, a lot of people, but that percentage of people within the community back then was quite low. So people expected gamification from NFT boxes and, and sort of incentives to hold the art. And that that's a part where myself and Pranksy kind of had a bit of a disagreement, because I wanted to my role in in the company was the community and kind of getting the business to work. So it was like getting the website getting the devs. And, and organizing that. And Pranksy's side was the artists organizing them and promotion. So when I'm, you know, talking to the community everyday and Pranksy's talking to the artists every day, I'm coming from right, so the community want this and Pranksy saying, but it's the art that matters, you know, we're not appreciating it as art. And we just had a bit of a disagreement. We both saw each other's side. But, you know, I wanted to deliver for the community he wanted to deliver for the artist, he didn't want the artists to see their work gamified after the point, which, you know, I completely understand. That just sort of led to us be like, Look, we've we have different views on how this works. We're, we're 50/50 and I just said, Look, do you want to buy my shares. 

Carlini8  13:32  
So I do no longer work there. I moved on to Purrnelope's but I feel the the views of the people have changed sort of herd views. Like more, more people do appreciate the art as art and a higher percentage, because obviously, the space is much bigger than when I was working there. But it is a higher percentage that really do truly appreciate art for art in the NFT space. I'm not saying it's a huge amount. So you know, people are gonna scoff at me and be like, Nah, everyone's here for profit. Most. I agree, most people are here for profit, but the people who truly are here for the art has grown and it is growing. And this is their segment. And that is what NFT boxes is for. And because there's more of these people, it makes the subscription service more viable. So during sort of the time of NFT boxes, the red line I Gazette has a subscription service and it's worked. It's worked for quite a long time at this point. So I I don't fully know I am on good terms with Pranksy I'm not you know, it's not like oh, we you know, we broke up and then we never spoke again. We still speak you know, pretty much every day. So but I just don't know. I'm not like Hey, tell me the intricate details of the contract. So I I don't know if it's based on the Gazette. So a lot, but I do know, it's, it's now possible. And I have been told it's going to be done this year.

Carly Reilly  15:09  
Part of my fascination with it, and the reason I'm pushing on it is because I, I really am curious in the ways that the crypto world can start to more closely mirror what we do in our everyday lives, right. And escrow payments or, you know, things like this, like a like a subscription models, because I think we've had very primitive forms of payment up to this point, you know, it's transactions. I mean, in some ways, it's more advanced cuz you can do micro payments in all these things, of course, but but I think that it's going to be fascinating to see how these, these models start to evolve. And I'm excited by that.

Carlini8  15:49  
For for escrow. We have just seen the crypto Twitter account, Kobe, crypto Kobe, he just took a 22 million USDT I think it was maybe USDC bet that he's the escrow of between two different people. I don't know quite how I don't think that's in any way. trustless I think they're basically trusting. There's this huge, this huge account that you know, everyone trusts is not going to rug because because of how rich he is.

Carly Reilly  16:25  
Yes, and has a high profile. So high reputational damage to for for little benefited with you? Yeah, well, I think about like, think about the metaverse thinking about being able to rent things out like, again, mirroring the economic system we have here is fully and even coming up with more advanced things. And we can we can do in the IRL world call it. It's just a really interesting area of exploration, exploration, in my opinion, as we continue to see the space evolve. I want to jump to Purrnelope's of course, so this is what you you have been really focused on since leaving NFT boxes. What was the initial inspiration goal premise? Let's say for Purrnelope's, tell folks a little bit about it.

Carlini8  17:10  
Well, it's hard, sad, say without the corny meme, because it was community, you know, I've just said, I was working on NFT boxes, and my pull was the community and Pranksy was the artists and that was our disagreement effectively. So when I wanted to do more for the community, when I then started something new, I then was able to focus on the community. And you know, I'm not just talking the talk, because we have at this point walked the walk with, we had an original sale of 800 Etheruem, 200 of that was sent into a community wallet for the community decide how to spend at the time the the most anyone had done that was 20 Ethereum. And when we planned it, no one had done it to my knowledge. So that was a bit annoying, because I thought we were going to be the first and it was luckily there was it was like 5 ETH, 10 ETH and 20 ETH for the free at the time. So we really blew that out the water. And then we had the creation of the kissy vault, which is a community owned wallet, which a huge amount of our sale went into, that could be seen on chain as well. 

Carlini8  18:28  
What what really annoyed me at the time was NFT projects were just minting out, and then splitting all the ETH between the founders. That isn't how companies work and NFT projects are effectively companies. You don't just go oh, here's all your money. Congrats. Now go build it for the next five years, because that's just that doesn't work. How are you going to fund anything within the company? How do you how do you do anything for the community that isn't just you working on it because you have been paid? But now you have to somehow work out putting money back in that it's just a tax nightmare. And I genuinely just think people had no real world experience of running a company or a business or even little little information on NFTs really?

Carly Reilly  19:20  
Can you orient us what when did you launch Purrnelope's Country Club.

Carlini8  19:26  
So we effectively started working on it towards the end of March, early April. And at that point, we will right what do we do? 

Carly Reilly  19:36  
Is that That's 2021?

Carlini8  19:38  
2021 Yes, last year.

Carly Reilly  19:42  
So March, April of last year. That's interesting to me because I one thing I want to ask you about is it does feel like there there was a lot of inspiration taken from bored apes which which came after that. So

Carlini8  19:54  
We at that points. We were what do we do? So I had, I had the community manager from NFT boxes who I'd hired part time to, to basically help me out to do the community role. And I was he wanted to be full time COVID was, you know, still pretty, pretty rampant and the job security aspects was really like, sort of playing on his mind, just like, right, I've got this, I got this job, I really enjoy it. But it's it's month to month, it's, it's part time, it's not a proper job. I'm not getting a pension, I don't have holiday, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And my goal was to bring in someone else that I'd sourced who had had done that sort of work sorting all that sort of stuff out for nine and a half years at a local college. So I pulled him out of this job just before he got to the 10 year mark. And then I was like, All right, guys, we can't actually, we can't do this NFT boxes, don't worry, I know if made you both quit your jobs, we're going to do something I was, you know, I was financially fine. I was perfect. I was personally set to my own level. So I've been I've been in the sort of fire space, financial independence, retire early, for maybe five, six years, it's really interested me from my old jobs. And even before that, so I always had this number that I was targeting. And I'd I'd hit that. And I kind of, you know, like, relief had gone over me and I was happy and it was a piece but I still had the building bug from NFT boxes, I really enjoyed it. I didn't like how it had ended. And you know, I'd sold my share of the business. And I still wanted to build. And I had these two guys that I'd taken out of their jobs for NFT boxes that I felt responsible for. So I said, Look, I'll give you a guaranteed year's salary. And what we were originally going to do, we'll figure out something. So the end of March, early April is when we'd started trying to figure out what we were going to do. And we were originally going to try integrating NFTs with streamers, maybe Twitch and YouTube as a sort of. So the idea was along the lines of on Twitch, you get sub badges if you've been there three months, six months, a year, two years, three years, and somehow make those NFTs a reward these people because they're effectively collectibles. But no one's getting these collectibles, you get you get sort of this status in a in a Twitch chat when you've got that two year or three year badge, because you don't have it anywhere else. So we were trying to figure this out. And then someone asked me, How do we make money from this? And I said, I don't know, I just want to do something cool in NFTs. And he said, Well, I've just quit my job. Have a have great stability. Like I I'm thankful that we've got it for a year, but I don't want to. I don't wanna have a career that dies in a year. It was a cool point. All right. But yeah, I'm kind of playing with your life here a bit. So we then sat down together, we're like, right, the meta, right? At this point. It was after Bored Apes. And, you know, sort of these, these profile picture projects were popping up. We're like, right, we can do a profile picture project, but we can do it right, we can bring in those community vibes while showing others how to do it, which I am quite proud of, because the big community wallets did up. In other projects after we did as and Kitty Vault type project, I hadn't seen another kitty vault. That wasn't a formal, like Flamingo dowel type of thing. And they then just after women today came quite common, and

Carlini8  24:11  
those sort of things as long as they're done properly, when you get rugged, because, you know, we all know that so many projects of from last year rugged. I did a tweet a couple of weeks ago, where I literally went back to the day we minted. And I looked at one of these lists. I think it was Metaverse, HQ his list that was here all the mints of the day, and I went through them. They were all dead. Except there. I think there were two art block mints on that day. But I You don't really count them in sort of this because you know, that's an artist coming onto a platform to mint their work. whereas all the other projects were practically dead, you know, no, no tweets this year for the majority of them. Whereas, if you had this To vote back in your NFT and it was done trustless Lee, at least you always have that value there. So it did help. And all of the rugs with this kitty vault style method have always ended up with a community team taking over because there is something of value to take over. There is something to command that is worth people's efforts. I was

Carly Reilly  25:28  
thinking pudgy penguins feels like the the obvious one that comes to mind of the community stepping

Carlini8  25:33  
I honestly don't know what's happened there. I've I've asked like three times if they've been sold. I don't know.

Carly Reilly  25:40  
I thought they were gonna hand it over to the community. But you're right that I actually don't actually know if that that's what

Carlini8  25:46  
those are remember? Like, the the big whale? Who knows? 9x 9x 9x? He'd been offered to he was going to take over. And then they said, Yeah, yeah, we'll sell it to you for 884. And he was like, What on earth? Are you saying, I will save this project? Why am I gonna buy this? You're failing?

Carly Reilly  26:11  
Let me be clear, you have nothing in the treasury? Correct. And they were like what? So like, I'm doing you a favor, let's be let's

Carlini8  26:21  
because they were another one who had just sent that Ethereum out to themselves. And I called them out on Twitter. And one of them had replied and said, that is what our accountant advise. And I said, there is absolutely no way that is what your accountant advised. Never, ever will they say.

Carly Reilly  26:40  
Do you think people are getting savvier, you're talking about back when you launched it was really unusual for you to put as much money as you did into the community Treasury folks could really just get away with product founders could get away with just launching this thing, taking the money and and running if they wanted. And then it's funny because I hear this other balance of the equation. I hear founders talking about the stress, they feel like they're under to constantly produce more utility and more goods. And nothing's ever enough, which almost feels like the counter to that, which is people sit almost like wanting you to put all of the money into just building the project back up. What do you think about that balance? And do you think people are getting savvier about not buying into projects that the founders are just gonna run away with it or? No. 

Carlini8  27:31  
Kevin? Like, 

Carly Reilly  27:36  
so no, we have not gotten? Yeah, in a way. It's funny. 

Carlini8  27:40  
We are getting some people are asking more questions, but FOMO still exists people. People are remembering the good old days of blacksmiths. And they still want that. So they're hoping you know, they're hoping pixelmon leads to that quick flip. People are savvy, yes. Just to just to answer the question, but there are more people. So more people are chasing what they're hearing happened last year or even January and February. And they're just new people are coming in and pushing these projects that should never mint out. Like we had a we had a small period of time a couple of weeks, where for some reason everyone felt they could put their mint price over one ETH for absolutely no reason. Like they had no

Carly Reilly  28:31  
Dutch auctions. It was like Dutch auctions starting it for like I feel like that dovetailed with.

Carlini8  28:37  
And this is this gonna set me off on a different route that we hadn't talked about before. I don't think that was the goal of this episode. I don't consider it a Dutch auction. If you are completely rugging, your best community members, when you launch a Dutch auction, those that believe in you the most are the ones who mint early they don't want to miss out they believe in you. They're your best community members, and you're completely rugging them. Normal Dutch auctions when they're done generally in the real world they use for one item. So you know, it just goes down and eventually the price is found for this one item. In the crypto world when it's used for tokens. The sale slowly goes down and you bid at certain prices. And then it wherever it ends, everyone pays that same price. So if you paid one ETH at the start and ends at naught point one you get refunded naught point nine because why should you pay more just because you believed in the project more it's ridiculous and it needs to die or we need to stop allowing that to be a thing. Because it is so much better to refund everyone to the price point A Dutch auction that goes down. I do not care if this Dutch auction starts off 1000 Ethereum In a way that's better because you're truly finding a price point. If you have it, you're supposed to start them high, right? They're supposed to start high and come down. But the FOMO gets people in. If you know that you will be refunded then the FOMO isn't really there is there in a different way you're there securely in the fact knowing that if everyone has bought at that price, it is truly it's it's proper value. We saw with the the 888 BT orbs done by I completely forget their name, the ones who did who do VOCs. Some people bought that at the ridiculous. It wasn't many, but there were people who bought that at like naught point. Sorry, 8.8 or something like that. And it ended up ended up sub one. And these people weren't refunded. They even paused the mint in during that mint yet the people who bought really high I think they were like 26 or 27. They were the people who wanted BTS work the most, yet, they are punished for that. And it's it just does not seem in any way community oriented to me, and therefore it is in no way web three.

Carly Reilly  31:31  
You're making a very compelling case. Zenica and I actually spoke about this, I guess a couple weeks ago. I think now that I'm hearing you say this based off of tweets you made in response to a project that was doing a Dutch auction, it was in response to frenzies. i

Carlini8  31:46  
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I

Carly Reilly  31:48  
did you comment on friends? Oh, I,

Carlini8  31:49  
I bet five times I was really trying to get through that because I was I had enough. I've, I've literally tweeted it senior moment. I've got tweets from meebits meant of that far back. I've been suggesting it but it was every now and then it was just a tweet. And I was like, I'm done. Now let's just this is this is my breaking point. I've had enough of these. I'm just literally like five tweets. The founder put out, I was like, please change this. I went to the discord. I tried to discuss it there. And I was just like, Please changes, let's change the matter. And this is the way to get it done.

Carly Reilly  32:29  
Let me ask you this, what you think about this idea? Because I feel like Dutch auctions are in part a price discovery tool, or they they could be seen that way? What if you took you know, I imagine the reason projects don't want to do this is because they don't actually want to sell it for the cheapest price like is there a way to take the average price of the cheapest and the the highest and anybody who paid more than that will go down and you buddy who paid less than that is given the option to pay at the average price, something so that it functions in that price discovery way.

Carlini8  33:01  
I think what would actually happen though, is because people feel safer, they're more likely to bid higher, I don't think what you're going to end up with is your fans bid higher up, knowing that it's going to go lower, and then everyone will wait for it to go lower, and then they FOMO in at the end. I don't think that's how it works. Because it doesn't, that's not how it works in the Coin World. You get a more fair price. And who's gonna pay more like when, when you offer the option for these lower to go to the average? I just I just don't think that's I can't think of a way that actually works. I can't think of a way this add on wallet goes. Oh, yes. So I'd love to pay up. Thank you very much for the opportunity. Well, if

Carly Reilly  33:51  
they knew in advance that this was a risk they were running by,

Carlini8  33:56  
I feel like I feel like you'd have to take the ETH at mint and then refund them a certain amount, I think is the I think the lowest amount is the only

Carly Reilly  34:08  
or they could all go into escrow.

Carlini8  34:11  
And then but that's kind of what approved the higher that's kind of what does happen with the higher payments right? The first people who meant it goes to the team and then or it will go into a contract the end of the sale the contract automatically works at that because there has been projects that have done this and you have to go and claim your Ethereum and while a small bugbear compared to this, you know this whole rant on Dutch auctions there is absolutely no reason to make people go and the gas is minimal. You've just raised hundreds of Ethereum for God's sakes send send it back automatically there's don't make it harder for everyone. That's that's unnecessary but if if the gas is a large percentage of your sale then I don't think you should be using a Dutch auction anyway There's a there's a time and a place for what I consider a correct Dutch auction. And it wouldn't be if you're mint is naught point naught two or anything like that.

Carly Reilly  35:10  
Last question on this before I do get us off it, what is the time in the place for a Dutch auction in your view?

Carlini8  35:18  
It will be his kind of arrogance on the team, I guess is when you know that you're going to sell out. And you you know that it is the best way to avoid a gas war. And the best way for price discovery. The issue with price discovery is if you've actually found true price discovery, then the current crop of NFT buyers aren't too happy because there isn't some kind of Evie. Plus buy there for them because the value is already there. So they're not going to be able to flip in a day. Unless there's some sort of real mechanic in there just to turn to degenerate though

Carly Reilly  36:03  
as in it wasn't you're, you're kind of guaranteed it wasn't underpriced. Yeah. If you're finding its true value, there's not opportunity. Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Well, I'm glad we had this tangent because I think this gives folks a good sense of your brain and how deeply you think about things and how deeply community oriented you are. So this leads me to our mutual friend, Kai Turner. I was talking about the fact that you and I would be speaking and I was asking if he had anything he felt like I really need to talk to you about and he said this, which I loved about Purrnelope's is your project. We need to make the Purrnelope's case study required reading, they've done so many amazing community things. Carlini is applying the best of what he's observed in communities like crypto kitties to bring the absolute best practices. Also, the floor tanked after mint. And he brought it back through sheer commitment to the project. And he has no plan to stop anytime soon. So now the floor is up. And it's a great study of how commitment and delivery can bring the floor price back. Lots in there. Maybe let's start with is that how you experienced things in terms of floor price kind of crashing? And then perseverance to bring it back up? Was that the experience for you living through it? And then if yes, we'd love to know about how you thought about that. I think it's something that's probably relatable to a lot of projects who see their floor prices go down, and maybe they start to panic, and they would love to know what it takes to, to rebuild.

Carlini8  37:34  
Oh, good. I I carry a lot of eath for that day. And that was that was very nice. Well, I guess I never really felt like the floor tanked, in my view, because I wasn't, I wasn't watching it in the same way I would had I invested i I can't come or high horse and be like, Oh, I'd never flip NFT flipping is fun. I have done it for a very long time. And while it isn't, you know, in any way, like a professional job that I was doing it, it was just you, you pick up these trends, and you can see how projects sort of mitigate these things.

Carly Reilly  38:18  
I have to jump in here and ask because this is not what this podcast is about. But of course, my head my brain kind of sparked when you talked about the I think it's like, it sounds like an early retirement thing. Was that made possible through crypto and NFT. Specifically, or did you have like a whole plan around how you're going to get to early retirement starting pre crypto and NFTs?

Carlini8  38:37  
Oh, yeah, I was I was going to get there. So I like my number was very large for a normal life, I guess. So the plan was to retire myself and my wife and have our kids or well looked after in a nice house and you know, all of that. And I had this number. Before NFTs I was a professional gambler in something called matched betting kind of so I started in match betting where you the casinos, let's call it bonus abusing. So they would offer signup bonuses, they would effectively the casinos are enticing people in so they get addicted and lose all their money. Whereas I was only playing the bit that they try to entice me in which they make sure is profitable for you so that you're more likely to when you're more likely to get hooked in. But I then stopped and moved on to a different offer and it was just basically doing these offers on an industrial scale. And I was I was doing well. You know, I was I was well on my way to financial independence. But it was a couple of years. Like the timeframe was quick in any sort of normal case study. But in J you know JPEGs very much shorten that quite quickly come the end of 2020.

Carly Reilly  40:05  
Okay, that's a whole other thing that I actually have a lot of questions about. But I interrupted your, your frame of thought, and I'm sure that's probably annoying to the listener. But because you mentioned NF T flipping, I wanted to get that question in there. So nothing wrong with NFT flipping, but what I'm hearing from you, which I'm not actually surprised, I thought this might be the answer. Like, you weren't tracking the price fluctuations on that day to day level, you had this long term orientation. So for you, it wasn't like, Oh, my God, the price has tanked. Because you were just like, we're gonna keep we're doing our thing. Is it up? Is it down? I don't know, like, I'm just building is that what I'm hearing,

Carlini8  40:37  
I didn't care for me. I cared for the community. And I guess, their mental health because I know, I know what it's like to buy into something and watch the floor dip. And I also have experienced through others what it's like to go all in, you know, while I didn't expect anyone to have gone all in on Purrnelope's. I did have a look at a couple of wallets. And you know, they obviously, you know, you never really know if that is one individual's worth in crypto, or if they've got multiple wallets. But quite a lot of people had gone a fairly high percentage in. So what was important to me at that time was messaging. I wanted to try and keep this community that we had as calm as possible, I didn't want them to just dump, lose money and move on. Because I knew I could get us pass back pass mint, and and over. And we did. And that was right. And I what I wanted to ensure was that people knew that we were building we're not one of the ones where, you know, if three hours after the min we're not at one ETH there is still there is still a future here, stick around, we're going to keep building. And that was easy enough, that's easy enough to do now, you know, I can just point to what we've done for for Purrnelope's so far. But I had to point to NFT boxes, I had to point to effectively my NFT degeneracy and be like, Look, my wallet is 1300 days old. It's got 15,000 transactions, I know NFTs I'm going to keep building please stay calm and don't lose money here. And you know people I'm sure plenty of people did lose money I'm sure they dumped got out and just moved on and probably went on to have the jpg summer of their lives. But to the the others that stick around, you know, from that time, they're all up because we're, we're multiples above mints at this point. So it what I try to do is take that negative of people always wanting to deliver, deliver, deliver, when this when that what's the floor price. And just take the reward that now I can look back and know that those minters were rewarded for trusting me. Sure they weren't all in and I'm sure they've done plenty of other stuff because we don't demand you know, all of your time, you can go and do plenty of other stuff in in NFTs just trust that we will continue working ourselves and we won't be doing other stuff. We I am not building on anything else. That's another bugbear of mine when a founder says they're all in to their project, and then suddenly they're launching something completely different with someone else a few weeks later, like, so you're not that dedicated either. But I won't go on that rant here.

Carly Reilly  43:48  
So are you like I'm in this for life? I asked this question a lot. Are you like I'm doing this for the rest of my life? Is this like ruin your retirement plans? Or are you like, Hey, we're in this until it's big enough that we hire a CEO?

Carlini8  44:02  
Well, we were already 9 of full time people. So I would already like to think that Purrnelope's doesn't need me. That's not me saying I'm leaving. I'm just structuring it in a way

Carly Reilly  44:17  
that rumor, Carlini leaves Purrnelope's rug,

Carlini8  44:21  
structuring it in a way that if I get hit by a bus or if a plane lands on my house, there is still a Purrnelope's there. There is still a team that will build there is still a team that will have you know, the kitty vault backing to keep going they will have the funds to keep building so that is always in the mind. It is we are planning for the long term or we're now trying like right now our current plans are how do we get our current salaries for for a runway in the bank which is not a big salary in this space. We are, we are very much working on love of NFT first and salary second, but how can we get that in a bank squared away just sitting there for a year or two. So that secure so we can say, look for the next two years, or maybe a year, depending on how pricings go and all of that, there'll be at least 10 people working on Purrnelope's or we have got the budget for 10 people, then, you know, colabs, and progress and website 2.0. And all the things on our roadmap, we price that in as well. So it's all about we are really planning for the long term. And this is why I said earlier, it really annoyed me when influencers minted and then split ETH between them, because how do you how do you then plan like this there is you can just leave at any point because there is no company. There is no you know, pudgy penguins. They didn't even have an empty vault, there was no vault, the vault hadn't been created to put anything in. And it was is just purely about the long game. And making sure that you know, even if something does happen to me that is a company there. And no, let's let's not start that route. But I have no plans to leave I am thinking about this project all the time. I do not want to go and do anything else. I already you know, I work from home I have I spend every morning with with my kids. I look after them. You know this is this is all within the plan. I'm already living a good life and working on something that I enjoy. So I The plan is to build this to be huge, to the point where my influence is minimal. But I still want to be there. Obviously.

Carly Reilly  46:52  
You mentioned to me my conversation with Zeneca. I think my very first one in which Seneca said he was not a fan of roadmaps because it didn't allow flexibility for projects or I think it was something along those lines. When you had this moment where the floor price was down and you were reassuring your community. So you had that messaging that you put out there. And then I imagine you got to work building on your roadmap, because you do actually actually have a roadmap. What is your take on roadmaps you've had sort of a distinct one around like? Well, most most things that people call roadmaps aren't really roadmaps. What what is your take on on the roadmap situation? And what was your roadmap? Call it part one for Purrnelope's?

Carlini8  47:35  
Yeah. So I enjoy roadmaps. Because it's not. It's not the roadmap that matters. What you can do is look at a roadmap and it will tell you about the team, you can pluck information out of what they've provided there. You're always getting an insight into their mind just from their roadmap itself. And our roadmap kind of took a shot at other roadmaps because we had 0% of mint we will boost discord because it was absolutely insane that there were projects at the time. There were like a 20% mint will boost our Discord to be nitro whatever. It was like what on earth what How is that a thing? And the the issue is like I said before, you really do have to follow meta if you don't want to do the shady stuff, you know if you don't want to buy hundreds of bots for your discord, or your Twitter or engagement farming or literally pay people to be in your discord to spam, when drop or so excited. You know, if you want to avoid all of that, your best chance of minting out is to follow the meta and the meta right then was zero upset. This was 10% there's 20% there's 50% there's bloody bloody blah.

Carly Reilly  48:55  
What does the meta mean in that context?

Carlini8  48:58  
So right now, I'd say we're in well, I'm hoping we're kind of at the end of the whitelist. Meta, where if you're not

Carly Reilly  49:06  
like epoch like era? 

Carlini8  49:08  
Yeah, yeah. So it's just from games. Basically, there be certain characters that have certain strengths. And the meta is to use those strong ones, and then the devs change how strong they are to keep the game fresh. And then a new meta comes. Because different heroes are strong or so my, my game of choice, I guess, would be a drone pose to and certain civilizations that you play us would be strong on certain maps and the devs would change that to try and keep it fresh and change that matter. Because otherwise, everyone's playing as the same civilization. So I guess it's just a term there for the most commonly done thing, like everyone, everyone had the roadmap saying effectively, nothingness. And like like you said, Seneca main issue with roadmaps was rigidness. Like you can't, you can't deviate from your roadmap. But we did. So the best two things we did on roadmap 1.0 Where are we did slash are still doing eight airdrops one a month. We took the snapshot for number seven today, actually. So we've got one more next month, and then we've delivered on all of those. And that wasn't on the roadmap. But when you're, I feel like when you're a full, full time team, you do have much more time to work on than the majority of these roadmaps' offer. And it is very important to me to be flexible because of this space and how new it is. And you just never know what's around the corner in this NFT world because of how the technology is growing and changing something absolutely insane, could come out tomorrow. And we have to pivot or we don't have to, but we think it is in the best interest of the business to pivot. Or we can still do that. Like I am still constantly thinking about where we can go and, and things like that. 

Carlini8  51:14  
So I do see tokens being huge, a NFT yielding token, and we promise token, it's on roadmap 2.0. But we've been tweeting about it talking about in our spaces, it's on our YouTube channel. For for a very long time to the point I've already registered additional businesses about that that was completed about two months ago, purely to launch these tokens. And I was in talks with lawyers maybe five months ago. So it has been in the works for a long time, despite not being on our original roadmap. Because I feel you do have the flexibility. Unless you know, unless your roadmap is ridiculously specific. Or you're going for, you know, if you're building an exact game, that does an exact thing, it might be quite hard to move from a roadmap. But I feel like projects like that really do need a roadmap for people to know where they're going. It's just, it's just more information. Obviously, a roadmap doesn't mean the team is going to deliver this, it means the team is hopefully going to try and deliver this. And it gives you a little bit of insight into I guess, their thinking. So I just like to be able to look at a pre mint roadmap. Maybe have a look at a couple of others coming out around the same time, right? If they just copy pasted, because if they've copy pasted, that's a negative, straight off the bat. Or if they are they actually thinking about this is is anything on here. Interesting.

Carly Reilly  52:54  
That's a good tip. Are you still like an NFT? flipper? Like, are you still degening? While you build personalities?

Carlini8  53:00  
Not really. Generally, I just meant into friends stuff for stuff that friends are really, really excited by because generally, you know, my, my closest NFT friends, I guess, if I call them call them that they've been through, I guess the horrors of the NFT market of 2018 and 19 and the beginning of 20. And we've all been through that together. And we've all kind of experienced it in the same way such that I know that if they're excited about it. It probably isn't just because they're going to make money. There. It's it's because there's something there. So I minted doodles for example, because that was by my friend Poopie. I meant to chain faces arena So it's my friend Nate Alex, who actually know how do we delete that from the podcast my enemy Nate Alex

Carly Reilly  53:59  
Yeah, I think that was that your requirement to coming on the show that you could mercilessly Mark Nate I think that was

Carlini8  54:06  
Yeah, I can't believe you put out like a bit of a teaser content from poopie going we've hired and you blanked out the name and you you just have your face like oh my god face and yeah, I

Carly Reilly  54:20  
like That's unacceptable. Unacceptable reaction to the

Carlini8  54:25  
new he joined already because you know, one friend joining another friend and I'd commented something under that post. Like if this is a hollow cat, I'm going to be few

Carly Reilly  54:39  
Okay, I want to talk about the kitty vaults because I think this is really interesting. And you mentioned you have these eight airdrops I'm going to give a high level here of my understanding of what you're doing with kitty vault and then would let will let you really expand on it. You have 8 airdrops total going to your holders and many of them are tied to physicals like a 3D Physical of your Purrnelope or merchandise. And so you have this system in place for my understanding, which is that with each of your airdrops, you have options, you can keep the airdrop NFT you can burn the airdrop NFT token or the NFT for to redeem for the physical associated with it. Or you're building out this plan. It's not, I don't think fully operational yet, where you'll be able to burn your airdropped NFT for tokens that represent a piece a fraction of this kitty vaults, and the kitty vault has about 1000 ETH worth of NFT's in it, ranging from bored apes to Kongs doodles that might be in there, you know, a whole bunch of blue chip and other NFTs that are worth about 1000 ETH. And you can have a fraction of this vault if you burn your AirDrop and choose to go that route. Did I summarize that correctly?

Carlini8  56:09  
Yes. That was pretty good. How much of your services to replace me and explain this way better than me?

Carly Reilly  56:19  
No, no. I mean, we had a long talk about it the other day. And it's it's stayed with me, not only because I was interviewing you, but because I think that's really interesting. So let, let me ask first of all, is this was this a part of the original plan? Was this something that's evolved? Since? Is it modeled off of anything else? How did this come to be?

Carlini8  56:40  
It was fairly maybe it was during mint that this sort of plan came into place. So very early. So we've already we've already opened up mint and minting took about a month, because I was anonymous at the time, and a few people knew it was me. But you know, not many because I didn't feel it was right for people to think I was working on NFT boxes, when in reality I was selling my half. And I thought it would not only look bad on Purrnelope's but afford to look bad on Pranksy in NFT boxes as well. If I mean, I've I've just said a couple of minutes ago, I hate it when people are working on something and then they launch something else. And I guess what I have here is proof that I do hate it because I didn't. I didn't use the advantage that it was me. I didn't use my years and NFTs to sell a project until I was officially out of the other one. 

Carlini8  57:35  
And we were thinking how can we do and if airdrops and NFT airdrops properly? Or I guess I use properly how I think they should be done. Because what I didn't like about the bored apes Kennel Club drop. Was you rewarded for having your ape at a at a snapshot and exact point in time? And after that they were just two separate entities until very recently. So months and months. There was there was just no use of the dog at all. Now, that sounds kind of harsh because obviously they are building out the dog Lauren. The bored apes roadmap 2.0 Has the dogs quite heavily involved. They believe they're two parts of it looks like they're going to save save the clubhouse or something like that. But I would question the viewers and say what if it wasn't bored apps? If it was just you know, if it wasn't the most successful NFT projects ever feels anyone else? How's that AirDrop doing not well. So I'm thinking from my point of view, where I'm putting out an NFT I'm not the most successful NFT projects. However, I want to make sure straight out of the gate that AirDrop has a use and isn't just well done. You can go and sell it because for the majority of airdrops well done you can go and sell it doesn't work out well. And we now have hundreds of examples of that not going well. So you know, I'm kind of vindicated there because I Well, this airdrops are just pointless most of the time. And now we have lots of proof of that. 

Carlini8  59:22  
So I wanted to make sure that ownership of this kitty vault we were building was somehow tied to these airdrops. So they're, they're inside these airdrops, you have to destroy them to get that or you can claim this physical. So the the goal was always to try and take this, this airdrop back from people in multiple ways. So we're pulling we're really tugging at that NFT and making people choose and if they don't want to choose to don't have to they can just hold that's fine. They can hold they can collect Of course they can sell, but they're also So other things that we're we're doing to make sure that there is utility there and there is underlying value via the kitty vault.

Carly Reilly  1:00:09  
And that 1000 ETH worth of NFTs that are in the kitty vault. Were those yours? How did you accumulate those did you use proceeds from the initial sale to buy them and leverage your talent at picking good projects? How did that work?

Carlini8  1:00:26  
We did just we did just use a sale. I didn't put it it wasn't like the whale token, where whale shark had all these NFTs and then put them into a collection and fractionalized it. Like I said, we we have on chain that we are all about the community. And you can go and look and see that these NFTs were bought from that we we have several different company wallets that do different things, and we have subdomain them so you can kind of see what they are. Some of them are just subdomains that we didn't want other people to take. So at the end of every YouTube video, Creative Director Kate says mini meow, because at the time when we started that we were teasing our first companion, which was a kitten, and it was like it's not a meow, it's a mini meow because kittens are small. And that kind of became a bit of a meme within the community. So we mentored that one on one of the community wallets just to make sure that no one else stole it from us and did whatever with it. So what we were then what we then did is took the majority of our sale and shoveled it into the kitty vault. And while I picked quite a lot of the NF t's the community did as well we voted on what they what they wanted to do with certain portions of ETH and it was all segmented in different ways. But the it wasn't really any you know, if I'm honest, it wasn't really any special picking because you know, last year everything went up like I did have a bit of FOMO because during our meant visa announced they bought a punk buying the punk and at that point I instantly took money out of the contracts and bought a punk I think I bought two and actually flipped one as the company in in two hours flipped it for however much profit obviously I wish I kept to but of course you know, hindsight is 2020

Carly Reilly  1:02:38  
well as Annika says infinite regret this space is just a space of infinite regret because you will never time the market perfectly 

Carlini8  1:02:45  
there is there is absolutely no one who has done the 100% and the problem of this space is the winners are always in your face and you're always reminded of like bored apes for example, I was told over and over again to mint them because you know my friends Pranksy see and Jimmy both minted huge amounts and just to make it worse Pranksy minted in two segments. So it was like guys are minting this I'm going to mint 200 You know, what's what's special there? He was like, I don't know, just minting it. I'll leave it next day. I'm mint a thousand more why? What's special about this brush effects, but there was there was just nothing that made me want to go upstairs and mints obviously, you know, I I was told many, many times go mint I was told many, many times by and you know, there's no matter how successful someone is in this space, there's going to be at least it's not even that one that got away is that 10 That Got Away, not selling at the top and then buying in lower and you know, is it's more about dealing with  mentally. How can you cope with those regrets and I probably have a bit of a head start given my gambling background and how I came into the space. I dealt with big losses when they should have been big wins back then. And now the big wins and big losses are way bigger. But it's is just a percentage at the end of the day of numbers.

Carly Reilly  1:04:22  
Do you think there's a certain element of like temperament you're temperamentally well suited to the high risk high reward lifestyle? Or do Do you actually think it's something you've learned?

Carlini8  1:04:34  
I think I'm quite well suited to high risk high reward while also being an absolute FOMO dragon. Like I just 

Carly Reilly  1:04:44  
I love the phrase FOMO Dragon, 

Carlini8  1:04:48  
like, I guess you know, I FOMO you know as well as the rest of them. But what I what I do have is, is in my mind I'm like right I am making this decision based on the information I have now. And I have accepted that information can change, variable change, things will change in front of me. But I didn't have that information at the time I made the decision, I made the best decision I could at the time, it was wrong, I noticed wrong, because I'm looking back back at it in this space, you never look back to your winners. You never like, Oh, that was great. You're just like, oh, but it could have been this. And it's people just have to figure out how A they best deal with it. And B how can they make that better for them? You no one can change themselves to deal with it in the perfect way. No one can look at someone who's really good and go, right, I want to be able to mentally accept it like them, you just can't you have to realize where you are now and try and improve that. But know where your personal limits are

Carly Reilly  1:05:58  
coming back to the kitty vaults. Yes. Have you worked out the tokenomics such that you understand the burn rate for getting a fractional piece of the kitty vault and therefore can tell us whether or not Purrnelope's is undervalued right now, based on the fact that it'll get these air drops, and those will be burned for kitty vault stakes.

Carlini8  1:06:20  
It's, well I don't really wanna say this out loud on a podcast to such a huge subscriber base. No, it's not. It's not undervalued based on that. And this is, I guess this is, you know, this is a whole other rant with NFTs is when you add some form of utility. And I wouldn't say you know, the kitty vault is utility in a way, it's sort of an underlying backing a collection of assets that backs your NFT. But in this space, when you add utility to an NFT, everyone values it on that utility, though, I remember there was a there was a game called Ember sword, I think that I was looking to mint a while ago is going to make some land in this game. And I was watching a YouTube video where they were working out. If the game hits this amount of daily active users, this is the amount of revenue your land will make. So I wouldn't pay anything more than x. Whereas if there was absolutely no utility, this calculation wouldn't happen. And people pay 10 times x, because there's just no ceiling, you add what people want, it adds a ceiling. And that's not really a Purrnelope rant. Because I don't see the kitty vaulty as utility. As such, I see it more like the gold standard backing the dollar back in the day, no one would ever actually want to use that gold, they just knew it was there. And that protected the dollar itself. So what I do see happening is as the kitty vault goes up in value, which should do it does have some very good NFTs in it. And I do, I do ask you, if you go and look at it do sorted by most last paid, because we do get lots of stuff sent to it. And there have been generally it's a long term value play. So if something is really lowly priced, and I can get lots of it for naught point one if it just seems worth doing because it's you know, it's a moonshot, why not. Whereas if you search it by highest last paied, you then see the bored apes, he see the crypto punk, you see the Genesis kongs, you see the founder of a stars, they're all at the top because we paid more for those NFTs. 

Carlini8  1:08:43  
So the share you would get, I probably shouldn't say share the fractional representation, you would get off the kitty vault. isn't like if it if, if that was worth more than the NFT was then I would just be buying it because you know, I'd be like, well, this is this is silly. Or you know, I put it in discord and I'm sure someone would buy it. Because when you when you have a reasonable argument and go look, guys, this is actually worth this and it's undervalued because of this. People don't mind buying it because they can accept that it's not FOMO it's, you know, facts and figures. Right now, it is working as intended. The NFT is worth more than that share. Because it should be because if you think of those bar graphs where they were they have different things on the y axis and they sort of stack up. If you think the underlying value of the kitty vault is a large portion of one of our air drops in one color and then you have a little little bit on top that is just the fact it is an NFT it is a collectible. It does have this other utility on top as well. So it's should always be worth more than the fraction of the kitty vault

Carly Reilly  1:10:06  
it functions is a really interesting floor for the project, you know, at any given moment in time, which is sort of the gold standard backing analogy that you're giving, which I think is really interesting. And I, I again, haven't seen, I haven't really seen and so I like it as a just a new and innovative concept.

Carlini8  1:10:25  
In theory, we can never go to zero, because for us to go to zero, all NFTs have to go to zero, or No, I guess our NFTs but when you when you now have a $5 billion valuation yoga labs, and you have their, I guess, technically their punks their meebits their apes and their mutants and a dog. So me quite tricky for us to go to zero think at this point.

Carly Reilly  1:10:49  
Would the what is it the community of token holders, ultimately, the folks who own the fractions of the kitty vault, they will ultimately determine if something gets sold and paid out to the token holders? How does that exit strategy for the kitty vault function now that they're in theory, probably not that there is an exit insight but conceptually speaking, 

Carlini8  1:11:13  
so the kitty vault will be on fractional 2.0. And the reason it isn't on fractional 1.0 was kind of demonstrated this week with the ape token drop, we are seeing a lot of a lot of apes within fractional wallets get sold right now. Because if they sell, they can claim their ape and in the in the vault, they can't. Now fractional 2.0's vault system is apparently going to solve this sort of thing along with, for instance, our Genesis kong yields banana. And if it's in a vault, it yields banana to that address. So you can't claim that banana and it's always gone. So you've got this token yield, you've got this NFT yielding a token that you never have access to if you've fractionalized it. And again, this is something that 2.0 is aiming to solve.

Carly Reilly  1:12:14  
So this will be on fractional. So there'll be a buyout price for the collection that the community will say yes, so

Carlini8  1:12:19  
the community who it will be a bit tricky, because we've kept back 10,000 ourselves precisely for that reason, because the tokens themselves will be held in a contract waiting for people to burn their NFTs. So just thinking ahead, I don't think there'll be many community tokens in circulation, early doors, I think it'll take a while. For these NFTs to be I've said, burn, we've, we've tried to change that rebranding to redeem just because I don't want people to randomly send it to our expo dead, not getting their token because they haven't sent it to a contract that sorts that out for them. So what we'll what we're currently planning to do when this goes live is we'll have our 10,000% 10,000 tokens, which is 10% of the 100,000. There are and we will have a snapshot vote on what they want to set the vault price at. And we will then just for unfortunately it has it is in a trust way is not trustless they have to trust that we will then set the price at the same way. I mean, in theory, if they didn't want to trust the stick at all burn all of their airdrops and their Purrnelope's get more tokens than us and then vote on it. I cannot see a world at all where that happens. But you know, it's it's an option, we would then set the price. And I imagine it would be much higher than we have a weekly kitty vault reports that comes out and says the floor price, it's it's really hard to value a collection that big. 

Carlini8  1:14:00  
And generally what we're seeing which I know you're quite involved in the meebits dao  is generally the price of these tokens track under the true value of the vault. So I do imagine that we'll put it quite a bit higher than kitty vault's reports, because the goal isn't for it to sell. The goal is not for this to sell. But if it does, people have asked like what happens if it does? And the the answer is if you want to burn your NFT to claim this Ethereum, which is effectively just selling your NFT really you you get rid of the NFT you get the Ethereum back, but then no one else can ever have the NFT you can then get rid of that share. And we'll probably give a time period for everyone to that wants to or maybe they want to think about it. They can have a week or two to claim that ETH and then we go shopping as a community, we just go again. And in a way we would then have less shares to split it between because some people have claimed that ETH have effectively cashed out. Some of the been 100,000, maybe 5000 have been used. And now there's 95,000 shares of the kitty vault. And we just go and buy what we consider undervalued projects again, like, in my head, if we get bought out, it's a good thing because they have overpaid, and we can then go and get value again. I think emotionally, people might be, you know, getting attached to our vault at this time, because you know, we've had that punk a long time. We've had those two Genesis kongs, people have started naming things within the kitty volt. So I'm sure you know, there'll be some tie that is that takes the hit, but then we can go and get a much higher valuation. And I just don't, I just don't see people massively over bidding on vault, because that you've got to do it in one go. Right? So let's say NFTs double in six months, that's 2000 Ethereum plus 2% of our revenue goes directly into it. You know, you're looking at looking at a big old big old vault that someone has to be able to bid on.

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Carly Reilly  1:17:52  
You created a subdomain for Purrnelope's Country Club, it's PCC so for example your ENS name now is Carlini is it Carlini eight N Carlini 8

Carlini8  1:18:03  
Carlini8 i If anyone if anyone listening can get me Carlini8 on Twitter DM me

Carly Reilly  1:18:11  
All right, first, carlini8.pcc.eth would be your yeah ens name. Now, that dot PCC subdomain. This is awesome. I want you to talk about it. But again, I'm going to give my sort of high level overview here which is on the surface. This is a brilliant marketing, social signaling play. Because you now have all these people on Twitter who have their names not just set to carly.eth, for example, or whatever their name is, but to carly.pcc.eth signaling that I'm a part of your community. And it's just another form of making your profile picture something. So I think that's really cool. I haven't seen other projects doing it, but we'd love to hear from you. Why do you think this is awesome? Why you chose to do it, what you think the potential is for ens subdomains in the broader NFT culture?

Carlini8  1:19:02  
Well, for most of these issues, any any kind of branding play. Whenever I whenever I tried to think about how big it will be I always just think if bored apes did it, how crazy would people go? So if if bored, board, apes offered you the ability to link an ens subdomain bayc.eth which they own they have it they can do this. If you're if you're listening guys, the top level of our contract says this will work for all ERC 721s feel free to use, you know, go ahead. If you could you make a subdomain that is your brand, then your favorite community. And then dot ETH your favorite chain presumably because it's you know, the best one then you'll say a lot in your username. It's also your wallet, you know, so people can use that to, to go and see straightaway what you've got. And I think you know how right now people are always like they have their vault, you know, and it's called their name and vault. I think long term, what we'll see is people will have their curated NFT collections in their ens Branded Subdomain. Because then they won't use that like a hot wallet. I think that will be where they're like, this is the stuff I'm proud of, because you know, let's say Twitter, hexagon, subdomains or just domains in general. What if you could just click it and it takes you straight to a gallery where you can walk around those NFTs or it takes you straight to the wallet itself. And you can just browse this person's collection in a way what you're saying there is this is me. This is what I want you to see about me when I'm telling you who I am so I am Carlini8 go look at actually don't go look at my wallets. I have not curated that and there are far too many meta bots in there. Then I'm telling you the community that I spend you know the first discord I open of the day, and that is obviously going to be Purrnelope's I'll be bearish on absolutely anyone who runs a project who isn't their own project. And then it's the utility of the wallet tied in. And you know, just as a personal thing in October and February. I have run giveaways. Every day I gave away one Purrnelope for you know, certain mostly it was retweeting a tweet. Sometimes it was coming into discord or making a meme. And in October, we didn't have it. And I had to log congrats, you've won send a DM, you know, what's your wallet? Then get the old classic someone changed their name and profile pictures that are Mo Yeah, I won, you know trying to scam. But in February, about half of the retweets were from my community that they had .pcc.eth and I could just send it straight away. I didn't have to ask them I could just send it because it was active. And if it failed, I could be like, Hey, what's up? What are you? What are you lacking a pcc.eth just go register it we give them away for free. It's just gas. And it's less gas than a normal domain. You don't have to pay to keep it longer. We register it as long as .pcc.eth is registered then we have absolutely no no plans in letting that lapse you know, we're, we're, we really believe it is the future we'll keep that going. You don't have to pay more, you're effectively not paying maintenance, we will pay the maintenance because you're repping us right? You're showing everyone that you like our brand. And it just turns your username into a profile picture. So if profile pictures are such a big thing, why can use a name projects not be such a big you know, just to kind of play on that.

Carly Reilly  1:23:08  
I love the idea of now you can click your Carly.PCC.ETH username, come to my gallery See my NFTs. That interactivity there. That's a that's a very cool concept that I think is inevitable. I don't know if people understand ens domains entirely. A they are NFTs. So if you have an ens domain, you probably realize that because you've probably seen it in your OpenSea wallet at some point. But they're also really just pointers to things in many ways. And so if my understanding is correct, Purrnelope said something interesting where maybe this wasn't universal, you can correct me but the the .pcc.eth points to a specific cat. It's not the you won't see the NFT itself in your OpenSea wallet. It's actually tied to one of your existing Purrnelope NFTs. Am I correct on that?

Carlini8  1:24:02  
Yes. So it also acts as kind of a proof of ownership. So you can only have .pcc and active .pcc.eth. If you own a real pin op, which if Twitter did do this hexagon thing, you wouldn't be able to just mint. Any old you know, you see some of these hexagon, apes. And when you actually find it, they've just they've just minted an ape in a different contract and then said yeah, it's an NFT and Twitter's gone yet. That's an NFT we'll show it. And that was that actually happened quite a lot in there was someone going around doodle Twitter accounts, trying to find them. And if they couldn't find the username matching the doodle they went they then went looking for the NFT that had been verified on Twitter. Whereas with subdomains pcc.eth if that was verified, they cannot you cannot find that they might try. You know, if we had an i on our name, they might try or if we had an l they might try capitalized, you know, that sort of thing. But then again, that is really limited in how you can fake it. So I do think it is a big way for Twitter to improve. And now that I've given Twitter that great idea, I'm sure they're frantically trying to contact me to claim it. It it just takes that proof of ownership to the next level without them having to whitelist NFTs instead of letting any NFT be used.

Carly Reilly  1:25:40  
Speaking of your opinions, your ideas speaking of ideas of yours opinions of yours. One of the the rant topics that you went off on a little bit when we spoke earlier that I loved was about how to do ERC 20 tokens right within the context of an ERC 721 project. And some criticisms you have of the way that board apes did it. I think specifically you told me that boards did it wrong, but they can afford to do it wrong. However, if somebody else tries to copy their, their process, they're screwed. So can you elaborate as to what you felt bored apes got wrong in the ape token drop?

Carlini8  1:26:24  
Yeah. So I do think they did it wrong. And, you know, that's obviously really hard to say when you're looking at a token, where there are going to be 2 billion of them. And they're currently sitting at roughly $15 apiece, which I will just put in here I learnt of ape token releasing on a Wednesday during a Purrnelope's spaces, which I predicted it would be $15. I'd open up a tweet. I put a poll up saying I think it'd be $15 Do you think it'd be less more or the same? And, I definitely not deleting that. Because you know, that's. So I did expect that this would work for them. But I think it works because they are them. The other thing is, they also know they are them. This isn't news, they know their position in the world. So they could do this. I think anyone that copies this will tank their project, because you cannot launch without utility with a yielding token, and I think NFTs should yield because like I said before, I didn't like that the dog was split from your ape instantly. And again, that works out because bored apes were bored apes became bored apes, and they kind of did it. They did this NFT AirDrop, successfully first, you know, though, there are these silly NFT archaeologists who try and tell you you should buy up dog O's or whatever it is because they did something similar 10 days before, which is obviously complete nonsense, and a rant I'll leave for another day. But any old project, unless you are literally the 5 billion valuation leader who can have the amazing execution to be on every major exchange at the same time, and have them all tweeting at your launch. If you don't have utility, your token is just going to tank because why are people buying it? And we see this all the time. It's it's not new projects are launching without utility. And my main worry is that everyone has always copied bored apes for the past year, half a year sorry. For the last six months people have copied bored apes. And they're going to do it now in tank what potentially could be a good project and there'll be there'll be stuck with this token once you launch a token it's there you can't get rid of it. You can't just flour sorry guys we hope to have about this token and now we're not going to use it why

Carly Reilly  1:29:10  
why do you think they launched now before the the played or in game was ready? Or before it had immediate utility? They're obviously savvy, they obviously get the market. Where was it just because they wanted to back to back it with the punk meebit long purchase and that had to be at a certain time. What do you think was behind the timing?

Carlini8  1:29:31  
Well, they did buy a lot of social equity by buying punks instantly buying buying punk and meebit IP and then giving giving them the rights that punks and meebits had been yearning for for so long is probably you know, the chat is moving any NFT history. Like it's just so baller it's unbelievable. We can see it coming for, you know the first few months, I'm sure people joked about it But I'm sure people have tweets they can retweet or you know, text to their mum that they sent, these are going to buy punks or whatever. But I don't think anyone truly believed it. And that obviously they kept growing and growing. And punks aren't apes. Apes are a company that have proven they will continuously build. Whereas punks are a relic. They're an NFT relic, where effectively in their sale tweets Larva Lab said, We never wanted this, you know, they see themselves as artists, and suddenly, projects are coming out and building and they don't want to build.

Carlini8  1:30:39  
I remember I was absolutely fuming in 2019 because I was a I was a big crypto kitty player. And crypto kitties were doing so much their website was insane for the time for an NFT project is still insane. Now, it's it's broken in pars because it's effectively been abandoned for a long time. But the website is still it has crazy utility built in. And they were doing so much they were running fancy contests. They were they were paying community members to try and build games, which ultimately didn't work out but they were trying and they got a lot of hate. Whereas Larva Labs in 2019 updated a filter on their site. So you could look at the old crypto punks better and everyone wild Oh, well done. Oh, that's great. Oh, you're the best. And I was like, they've they've slightly changed their website. Like it wasn't even lots, they slightly upgraded their website and got huge praise cryptokitties That, you know, I was having fun playing and had done all this stuff and just got a lot of hate. Partly from me, you know, I'm not gonna pretend I was all nicey nicey I was, you know, shouting like the rest of them. But I guess my point is, they never did anything buildi they Larva Labs. I don't actually know if it's true. It's just like, I guess. But in my head they inspired nifty gateway because they sold a physical prints at a gallery of a crypto punk to the Winklevoss twins, who then I'm pretty sure they own Gemini who run nifty gateway. So you know, I am not in the position to talk to them. Maybe if you ever do, you could ask them if they're inspired by Larva Labs in any way, but in my head they are. And that that is a way that they inspired the space. But they never wanted to build on punks. And then got a lot of hate for like, doing meebits and then doing nothing after it or given T pose and nothing. 

Carlini8  1:32:49  
But I think the timing of the ape drop. It's it's probably something that I couldn't guess something internal that I couldn't guess or, you know, they have been known Fuckit mutants fucka ape, we've just, we finally, I can imagine, because, you know, we know of Kai's issues dealing with Larva Labs, it took them so long to engage a man who was trying his best to only add value to meebits meebits style did more for meebits than Larva Labs. From my point of view, like I don't know if internally, Kyle, think differently, or if you think differently, or if he wouldn't ever voice that but you know, actually think it, but they just would not help him this man is or this whole community is working so hard on meebits and they wouldn't engage for so long. But then, all of a sudden, they're selling to Yuga who maybe we're having to deal with that sort of slowness and lack of engagement. It finally went through, they wanted the token to have launched maybe because they had said Q1. But they had said it and we were getting to the point where people are thinking oh, maybe this isn't going to happen. When in reality maybe they were just waiting for slow Larva Labs to have got this sale free. Sorry, Larva Labs if this is completely wrong, and you were really quick. But that's just my sort of perception from the outside. That sale goes through and they're like boy

Carly Reilly  1:34:21  
it was a powerful one two punch that announcement. 

Carlini8  1:34:24  
It was it was epic. 

Carly Reilly  1:34:25  
Ape Metaverse video with punks and meebits like I mean, dang.

Carlini8  1:34:30  
I mean, you can tell it was late as well because the leeks Dec had didn't have the punk and meebit, but because it wasn't theirs. They couldn't use it. So they had clearly planned it without it. And then bam. They get it change it and it's just all go. There must have been exciting in their offices that when they went through.

Carly Reilly  1:34:52  
So circling back to your issues with. I think there are there are two really which is One this point that gets back to the kennel club, frustration, and I thought this was an interesting point, which is the air dropped the tokens, whatever you were entitled to as a holder, your 10,000 tokens, whatever it was, you you got that all at once. And so that automatically almost makes it a distinct entity, it makes Ape and it makes APE the coin and your bored ape, sort of distinct entities, not entirely, of course, they're deeply interconnected. But you're trying to drive value for both the ape coin and the bored ape, as opposed to if you're bored ape yielded tokens over time, by adding value to either one, you're inherently Well, I guess, if by adding value to the ape token, you're then inherently adding value to the bored ape, because it's yielding that ape token over time. But like the kennel, the dog was sort of so independent and didn't have utility from day one. That's sort of argument one you're making about why you didn't like the the way the token drop was structured. Is that correct? 

Carlini8  1:35:59  
Yes. And I know the argument will be, but the DAO is voting to stake. And the time period is quite short. And just today, so between our two chats, apes, apes are now all kind of trying to figure out what the proposal actually is, because it said, there's a bit of confusion over how it works. And even just while we've been talking, there's Twitter spaces in there. A couple of high high profile apes, you know, tagging the founders and trying to figure out what does this actually mean? So it's, it's not as simple as if they're NFTs just yielded the token. And I just think it is, it is the way your NFT should yield long term the token, because then when you add value to the token, you are adding value to your NFT. I don't, I don't know if maybe this is the way they can do it legally. Because I know I can do it legally, my way, but I'm in the UK and have followed different procedures, whereas I know they're in the US, which you know, it gets it gets much trickier. So I'm wondering if that's the reason why the they can yield the NFT directly, but they can't stake if a DAO has voted for it, maybe

Carly Reilly  1:37:23  
that would make sense because they could also have a contract set up, the DAO would have a contract where it's basically like an algorithm enacting it not an entity, you know, so it's like it's not Yuga. That is is yielding this token via the staking it's this algorithm over here, it gives them a layer of separation from the action itself, which gives them a layer of protection over, you know, the SEC coming after them in some capacity. So that's a good thought, actually, that might be it. And your second critique, which we was sort of wrapped up in that first one is that they didn't launch with utility immediately. And we've we've sort of digested that and discussed that problem. 

Carlini8  1:38:00  
Yeah. So my main worry is that it's not the bored apes have done this is that people will copy bored apes, and they're going to tank their project effectively, in my view,

Carly Reilly  1:38:12  
okay, the last topic that I absolutely wanted to get to with you. And then again, there may be other little things that pop up as we're talking about this is your announcement. I think it's part of Purrnelope's roadmap 2.0 that you all are you know, Purrnelope's had purchased land in NFT worlds and is building I think it was like four games, but is building in NFT worlds. We'd love for you to say more about that. And also why you you chose to buy land and NFT worlds. What with many Metaverse is to choose from? Why have you chosen to fly with NFT worlds?

Carlini8  1:38:48  
Yes. So having sort of been here for the length of these other Metaverses so it's, it is a bit weird to have been here this long. And I saw you know, the decentraland original sale thing, it was 15 million way back then that they raised, which was a large amount for an NFT project. But then like loads. There's, you know, sandbox is another big player. And then voxels, which was kind of a spin off of I don't want to say spin off a decentraland but he worked there and then it was like oh, this is going to work. I'm going to do it right and then when to do it. And then there are more recent ones and I've ended up picking NFT worlds, which is one of the newer ones Why Why have I done that when all the others have been building so long. And it's the while it's the newest one. It actually has the most tested game in history backing it so Minecraft is the most played gaming history. Probably almost certainly, most board game in history is somehow just survives. Everything you know, some people stopped playing and then suddenly for some reason And kids are now playing this really old game. 

Carlini8  1:40:03  
Great, great game. And you know, you can be really creative in it. So there's just so many ways to play within Minecraft. But when you can take that base underlying tech, add it to effectively web 3, and package that up, what you've got is sort of a quick fire way to have an incredibly tested the most battle tested piece of software in the gaming world effectively, to then allow people to build it. And it also comes with builders that have worked on it for longer than NFTs have been around. So we've partnered with entity builds, who are building on our world for us. And they have held Microsoft contracts to effectively build the games that Microsoft have made around Minecraft. So since Knoch, sold it to Minecraft, Microsoft and Microsoft have now actually owned it longer than Mojang ever did. And what you end up with is a team that are familiar with what they're doing already. They don't have to learn all of these different intricacies just to make make a world or to make a game. 

Carlini8  1:41:27  
And I did find this a bit tricky for. So your friends are ik when we were planning out this this hoodie that we've got, which was our first AirDrop, which has an NFT in it. And it in my opinion, solves in real life fashion and Metaverse fashion linking together. When we were trying to get the design in, say decentraland For that it was tricky. There were there were hoops to jump, jump through people to talk to. Whereas it's easier in an already battle hardened process. And the things they can build and release just seem insanely good decentraland and don't have anything close to being able to play those types of games yet. And I'm sure they're coming. But as a founder who's you know, wanting to deliver when game when game when game. You know, that's the the pressure that the community put on you. I can't wait on a different project to to get their sandbox don't let you or at least at the time, don't let you build as a person, I guess you have to kind of go through them. And there's just more red tape to be able to do that. So other projects are able to but you know, like Snoop Dogg for some reason has more say than me and what can happen. I don't know why that is

Carly Reilly  1:42:55  
talked about Snoop Dogg's sandbox, I don't know activation land last week because I started playing around in it. And my boyfriend commented that he was like, Are you like, are you watching porn? Like he's like, what's the porn coming out of your computer. And it was me in the Snoop Dogg. Metaverse. So in the sandbox, so there's a plug for that. 

Carlini8  1:43:15  
Yeah, for some reason, he had more sway than me. And he could get that built. Much, much shorter, I don't know who even knows who he is, you know. So there was there was just kind of red tape there blocking that, and just these incredible builds that entity built it had. And I'd, I'd reached out to them, it was actually quite tricky to, to get in touch, we kept missing each other. And I really did persevere because I just thought this is the best option for us. And just the way that it's already got the world token integrated, so we'll be able to have a stash of world token, we're gonna have four different games with various various different, I guess, levels or arenas within it. And we can reward people for doing certain things. So one of the games is gonna be a golf game, whoever, you know, whoever scores the lowest that week, or even that day, we could reward with token. Whoever kills the most zombies in the zombie defense game, we could reward with token we could have eSports Game League set up based on high scores within our game. So just the ability of using that token within these games just adds another level of, I guess, exposure to people because people will, people will go to Worlds where they could potentially earn money. Like if they're, if they're good at zombie games, they're going to go and try and win a zombie game.

Carly Reilly  1:44:57  
What how do you think about the balance between We've been using worlds token the world token as a reward, and the ERC 20 token that is going to be yielded via Purrnelope, and by your own NFT.

Carlini8  1:45:13  
So there, there's a sort of short term long term play there. So short term, we will be using world because it's already easily integrated, there is a community built around the world token that we can tap into by using it. And people will know what it is like if you're just scrolling through worlds to go and play. And you see that this one yields world and this other one yields, Purrnelope token, you don't know natively what Purrnelope token is worth. So it's a it's another form of advertising, I guess, to be able to use word token at the start. And maybe as were more sort of established in the world to can the world NFT worlds world or ecosystem, we could add our token as well. But in reality, that will require some kind of talk with NFT worlds because I don't want to annoy I don't want to come in and just be like, Screw your token, we're gonna use ours. I want to have a conversation and be like, so what do you actually want to see from your worlds? Would you have an issue of us using our token? Which obviously I haven't had yet, because we don't even have our games ready, or attic. So at this point is, yeah, it's it's not needed yet. But that that will be a conversation that had and maybe, maybe we'll have some sort of converter instead, where your Purrnelope automatically goes into world which he then can convert back and forth.

Carly Reilly  1:46:46  
What is your plan utility, knowing that you feel it's very important to have utility out the gate for a token for the talent Purrnelope token when it's when it's released, as it won't be a reward within your gaming ecosystem, at least initially?

Carlini8  1:46:59  
So that's who what do I what do I leak from roadmap 2.0? So we

Carly Reilly  1:47:12  
is this alpha? Are we about to get alpha? Or is this possible? I

Carlini8  1:47:14  
think it's technically Alpha. I honestly, I don't know what to talk about half the time, I might have leaked everything in spaces. Can you tell I talk when I'm talking about NFTs, whereas talk to me about anything else. And I just won't say a word like in in the real word, I'm quiet but NFTs just can't stop. We we have our tier two or tier two, which is effectively so Purrnelope's tier one. And unknown tier two. And then there are two tier threes which are your kids and and next month said drop. Tier Two is effectively our meebits, mutants that kind of level. Now, I said before flexibility is is key. And that we're going to be raising money to try and ensure that we have that salary banks for at least a year, maybe two. So what we have planned is we're going to sell before token is released, probably in May, we're going to sell an NFT, which yields token. And it's going to be priced up that if you want token, it will be better than buying a Purrnelope by quite a bit. But you will know that you're funding the teams. You could I might even somehow try and get a little sort of presentation on how we've spent our ETH you can see on chain, we have a history of by that time you know 10 11 months of spending our ETH responsibly for Purrnelope's. You will know that by buying this cheaper NFT that yields token, which will have a bit of a degen play. So you might be able to get quite a rare NFT that yields quite a lot of token. It will all be priced up to make it worth going for without devaluing Purrnelopes is quite a tricky balance to balance to make. And you'll be funding us securing that year or two of runway while also then effectively adding extras to roadmap 2.0 That's where all of our funding will go after we've secured everything and also it funds the entity builds because so far that's I've told them yes I'll pay and I've paid a third of it so far and it is it is it is expensive. They they have asked me not to say and I completely respect that. But it will very much be worth it. It's It's incredible the games that they're able to build In these worlds, but our token out of the gate, you will be able to mint tier twos. So the the second tier of our of our club, you'll be able to mend it there is a there is a bit of a twist, but do I say there are okay? There are six different tier twos within it 

Carly Reilly  1:50:29  
I'm moving in closer, listening closely

Carlini8  1:50:31  
And within those six different tier twos, there will be then different rarities. So there are almost six collections within this one collection of tier twos. And the thing you will be buying is almost like a mutant serum based on I don't know if you've seen the subducts snack shop.

Carly Reilly  1:50:56  
I don't think I have actually.

Carlini8  1:50:58  
So they they have vault their token. And they sold snacks that could do certain different things in their in their vault shop. And I love that idea. And we will be selling different items that you will use on a Purrnelope a kitten or a different the other companion. And there'll be two different items for each one. And that will then create your other thing. I've leaked a lot of plan there.

Carly Reilly  1:51:37  
well so now of course they have to ask one token, now I've got to be 

Carlini8  1:51:42  
if the if the plan for the sale is May the working plan for token is June.

Carly Reilly  1:51:51  
That's awesome. It also reminds me of something that I I've loved which is the cool cats plan for cool pets where you feed it you can buy things and feed it different things in it that'll affect whether it becomes fire earth rain, or you know, its elemental piece. Is that similar as well to what you're describing?

Carlini8  1:52:09  
It's is that a longer term feeding? I more asking because I'm not entirely sure what it was.

Carly Reilly  1:52:17  
I don't think so it is ongoing. It's not like a one time feeding. Okay, so

Carlini8  1:52:21  
as I was would be, I bought mutant serum style. You give the serum it makes it but you actually get it in a septic style away. And you get the token in a cyber kong style away. So I you know I've said from the start if I think an idea is good, I will see how we can take it and I love the shop. I love the token yielding. I love the using that item you get from the shop to create something and then we've added that within the collection there'll be six and just try and add a little bit on top of the stuff that I've taken from elsewhere I guess

Carly Reilly  1:53:06  
well, thank you so much for sharing all this I love getting a glimpse into how your brain works you obviously there's a there's a lot that your brain does, right? Like figures out right if that's not a weird thing to say, just based on how you discovered the space so early and and your success in it. And I've just been so grateful to get to learn more about Purrnelope's both through obviously this conversation directly but even in doing some research leading up this conversation, I have to ask as like a final question. I know this feels like it almost like runs. I don't know if it runs counter to what you've been saying. But like Where would you like Purrnelope's to be in five years do you have like a we want to be supreme we want to be Disney? I know the answer is no. Because we've just spent this time talking about how you stay flexible but still have roadmaps but but what is the where would you like it to be in five years?

Carlini8  1:53:58  
Well as as an NFT guy, I would much rather be bored apes than Disney. Because to me that's more important like there's just I want to be able to pivot so the possibility of saying in five years will be here just isn't there because here in my opinion doesn't exist yet. So maybe five years is is too long but in say a year I'd once a stronger brand. I really would want more people using .pcc.eth I'd also love for other collections to be using .whatever.eth I would love for the gaming elements who you know have completely taken off and people do playing the game we are we are just trying to go down every road that I think is great. So I do see plenty of things that other NFT projects do. They just think, why would we go down that road, they're going down that road. That's great. That's their focus. But that not only doesn't interest me, but I don't really see how it works or the value that I could add to that. Whereas with branding, we're kind of going down the innovation route. And we do have something that is really cool. Coming soon TM, it's not really cool pump people's bags, you know, Purrnelope's to the moon. But it just technologically it is incredibly cool for NFTs. And I can see others running with it as well, just like the subdomains are gonna are gonna keep that one in the lock. Because I've already I've already given away too much.

Carly Reilly  1:55:50  
You already shared too much, which of course, I love it. I'm so grateful to you for sharing, for sharing lots. Really exciting. I will be tracking Purrnelope's closely. I love everything you've had to say here. And thank you so much for hopping on and being so generous with your time we're like, I think this is definitely the longest podcast I've I've recorded to date. And it's because you just have so much to share. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Carlini8  1:56:17  
No. Thanks. Thanks for having me on any opportunity to soak around NFTs I just love it. I can't stop.

Carly Reilly  1:56:24  
Trudy, that's how you retire early folks, be this passionate

Carlini8  1:56:27  
do not copy me. Copy Trade Me You're screwed from now on, I think

Carly Reilly  1:56:33  
well, I still need to pick your brain about this. How I too can take advantage of I don't know trying to turn me into a gambling addict. And if I can resist it, to make a bunch of money. That's yeah, that's what I took away from what he said. Awesome, thank you so much.

Sponsored  1:56:56  
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